Correct dial for 23j Special Railway

[rschussel]

I am trying to get some opinions about the dial on my recently acquired 16 size Hampden 23j Special Railway.Do you think it is the original/correct dial.


My 23j SP (3,327,060) is in the first production run (1919) and the second run 3,451001 to 3,451356 (1921) was near the end of the RR watches they made.

The Hampden Watch Co book shows a dial similar to mine serial 3,459,853 page 60. The Mongomery dial shown for a 23j Special Railway says Hampden, not Dueber Hampden

Any thoughts would be appreciated .

bob

[Kent]

bob:

Down't worry about it, its fine the way it is.

[rschussel]

Kent
Thank you for your comment.

Kent I collect 12 size Hampden so I know very little about RR Grade Hampdens. I purchased the 16 size 23j Special Railway as I wanted one Hampden RR in my collection--I know it is a very scarce watch.

Should I interpret your comment that the dial may not be original?

Bob

[Fred Hansen]

Is it the "Dueber Hampden" signature that is causing you to wonder?

The heavy bold style outer chapter is what I would expect to see on a late RR grade movement and my instinct would be that the dial is likely correct, but I have not studied serial numbers and the "Dueber Hampden" signature.

Fred

p.s. Great movement! This is one of my favorite 16 size Hampden damaskeens and the gold touches around the balance and barrel jewels really give these 23J Special Railways a terrific look.

[HenryB]

Bob
What a great looking watch, and definitely not a lot of these watches made.
If I had just one 16S Hampden, I would take the 23 J Special Railway with the lower production number. How can you top that ?

I have not studied or recorded dials, just movements, but your dial looks identical to the New Railway Montgomery dial on page 60, about the same time.
Personally I like yours better that the one shown on page 59 without the Dueber.

[rschussel]

Kent

Yes,my question concerned the Dueber Hampden name on the dial .The dial on my watch is identical to the one shown in the Hampden
Watch Co. book for a 16 size 21j New Railway produced in 1921.The Montgomergy dial shown for the 23j Special Railway ( in the same production run as my watch-1919) only has Hampden on the dial.

When I spoke to Bob Arnold who is the co author of the Hampden Watch Co book I asked him if I was only going to own one Hampden 16 size RR
what would he recommend .Bob said the 23j Special Railway. He warned me that they were very scarce ( he has only seen about 5 or 6) . I got very luck and 3 days later the above watch appeared on ebay and I
feel fortunate that I could get it.

Again,thank you

bob

[rschussel]

Henry
I was typing away when you posted your message.

I concur that it is a neat watch and dial. I think Hampden has been much maligned but they did produce some pretty nice watches.

Even on 12 size most of the dials say Hampden rather than Dueber Hampden . My impression is that the Dueber Hampden name started to appear in 1918 or 1919.

Bob

[rschussel]

As I normally collect 12 size I was wondering two things.

1) How does the 23j Special Railway compare in quality to the 16 size 23j RR watches being made at that time by Hamilton,Elgin,Waltham etc?

2) Are there other 16 size RR Hampdens that seem to be scarcer than the 23j Special Railway?

Thanks
Bob

[Tom McIntyre]

I bought this 104 a while back because I had sold one years ago and regretted it. It is interesting to compare it with the 23J Special Railway.
http://www.awco.org/OtherHigh/NewYork/Hampden104/Movement_small.jpg (http://www.awco.org/OtherHigh/NewYork/Hampden104/Movement.jpg)
I presume these are much more common, but I have not tried to sort that out.

[rschussel]

Tom
According to Henry Burgells CH 149 Hampden database 4,300 23j 104s were produced like yours versus 1,100 for the Special Railway l have been asking questions about.

Bob
PS did you get my message about the Gruen on ebay.

[Jon Hanson]

As I normally collect 12 size I was wondering two things.

1) How does the 23j Special Railway compare in quality to the 16 size 23j RR watches being made at that time by Hamilton,Elgin,Waltham etc?

2) Are there other 16 size RR Hampdens that seem to be scarcer than the 23j Special Railway?

Thanks
Bob



Yes, the freesprung one I have.

[rrwatch]

The scarcest RR grade Hampden I know of is the 21 jewel Dueber Watch Co. bridge Model (series) 4 in 16 size (the 18 size are common as dirt). I picked up S/N 2,713,837 a few years ago and showed it to Bob Hernick who told me that he had never seen or heard of one before. It is not listed in the Hampden or Gold books, and falls into a small gap in the recorded Hampden serial numbers. This example is the only one that Kent and I have seen or recorded.
If anyone knows of any additional examples please let us know.

[Tom McIntyre]

Yes, Bob, I got the note.
Thanks

[Kent]

Bob:

Getting back to the dial, and your original question, is it the original dial, there is no definite answer. Lacking the watch's provenance and service record, the best that could be said is that it could be the original dial.

All too many times, people focus on a specific date as shown by this table or that chart, forgetting that without specific factory records (such as are available for Hamilton, Howard, and some other watch makes), even the best of these are only approximations. All of us who post regularly on this message board, and certainly those who replied above, know that the most expensive watches were slow sellers. A number of them remained in inventory, likely in the grey, for years and even after being being finished and sold to jobbers, they may have sat on the jobbers' shelves for more years.

The Dueber Hampden dial was used during the 1920s, perhaps during the mid-1920s (1924-1926). If the watch shipped from the factory in 1922, was sold to a retailer in 1923 and sold to the first owner in 1924, and if he said, "Hey, I'd really like one of them there Montgomery dials." Would it be the original dial if the retailer put one on for him at the time of sale? If the factory didn't ship the watch until 1924, that dial may have been on it at that time.

There are plenty of examples of this sort of delay. The serial number vs. date lists tell us that the last Elgin grade No. 390 (21-Jewel BWR) was built in 1910, the grade No. 389 (21-jewel Father Time) in 1912 and the last grade No. 385 (17-jewel BWR) in 1911. These three were the last of the 18-size railroad watches bearing those names fitted with the indicated jewels. Yet, they all appear on page E2 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

I suspect that Don Dahlberg can provide us with similar examples of high grade Hamilton watches that hung around for five years or more.

So, to repeat my initial comment, "....its fine the way it is."

[rschussel]

Kent
Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply.

The second part of my question had to do with the quality of Hampden RR
watches compared to the the other major companies around 1920 . As I specialise in 12 size watches I have no reference point for making comparisions among RR watches. For example was the Hampden 23j Special Railway of similar quality to a Sangamo Special,Hamilton 950 or a Maximus and in general how did Hampden RR watches of that era ( around 1920) compare to the other players.
Thanks
Bob

[HenryB]

To address this Question from Bob in his previous post:
2) Are there other 16 size RR Hampdens that seem to be scarcer than the 23j Special Railway?


http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/pw_dbresearch.html

Go to the Hampdens and input the following three serial numbers:

802102
3111700
90300

These 16S watch grades right now exhibit a lower production in the database that the 16S-23j-SPecial Railway.

WORD OF CAUTION - though
For the uncommon watches, the database estimates are approximate and relative. They are subject to high percentage variations of newly discovered runs (Heck maybe an addition of 500 grade movements, with a new run:o).

Thats why I added the disclaimer at the bottom of the Hampden Webpage, it is still in testing.
and I feel that the uncommon grades will fluctuate, as more observations and dialog continues on Hampdens.

On these uncommon runs in particular, if you have any serial numbers to share with us on these grades, please email me privately or post them in this forum.

[HenryB]

Ed
Concerning your 16S 21 J watch no. 2,713,837.

Is the wording on the plates "Dueber Watch Co." or "The Dueber Watch Co. " ?

Obviously I must open up a new grade in the database, with a limited estimate of production number, and of Course your name in the comments section, so I want to make sure I have it correct.

When I first saw this entry in your and Kent's datalisting, I was convinced it was a bad entry :?|

Looks like now we will have to DEAL with IT :thumb:

[Kent]

Oops

[Kent]

... was the Hampden 23j Special Railway of similar quality to a Sangamo Special,Hamilton 950 or a Maximus and in general how did Hampden RR watches of that era ( around 1920) compare to the other players.
Thanks
Bob


Bob:

I think that the Dueber-Hampden Spceial Railway grade approached, but never quite equaled the top (railroad grade) watches of Illinois, Hamilton or Waltham. I believe that Dueber-Hampden fit in the category of second tier supplier, a manufacturer of high quality products for which price was more of a consideration than for the products of those manufacturers in the top tier. Its not uncommon to see blurry markings (as though the dies were worn beyond the point where they should have been changed) on the later 18-size Special Railway movements. Also, the overall finish isn't quite as good as that on the Sangamo Special, 950 or Maximus.

Collectors tend to look down upon Dueber-Hampden. I suspect part of the reason is because the company's top watches aren't recognized as being in the class of the Illinois, Hamilton and Waltham grades you mentioned. Another part is the production quantities all three of those companies' watches have been long published and the variations analyzed. By contrast, very little was known about the quantities and variations of the higher Dueber-Hampden grades until the publication of Hernick and Arnold's book. Bob deserves our continuing thanks for his hard work and we should fondly remember Jim for his portion of their efforts.

However, the serial number vs. grade data in their book is only a starting point in developing a feel for the production quantities. I believe that, with the exception of a few grades which have had only one or two well-defined runs, the only actual estimates of grade produciton quantities and basic variations which has been published is that for the Special Railway grade in the October 2005 Bulletin.

[rschussel]

Kent
Thank you again.

I wanted to discuss Hampden estimated production quantities.

As I concentrate on 12 size watches the Hampden watch Co. book was a god send.There were many 12 size grades and variations I had never heard of. Using the serial numbers in the book I developed estimated ( production ranges for each 12 size grade) .These estimates were used to help upate scarcity ratings for Shugarts Price Guide. Prior to this no one had a good idea of 12 size scaricity.

It should be noted that the Hampden Watch Co book is biased towards 16 and 18 size watches and those that tend to be more scarce.The results is that for the more collectable watches better production information is available.

Now that Henry Burgell's CH 149 Hampden Database is available ( and being updated periodically) collectors now have a great source for obtaining Hampden grade production and variations.

I know that some collectors are ready to be critical of Henrys database until the database is much larger. However ,I would agrue that in most instances that the magnitude of production of most grades are finally known.Does it matter that estimated production of a grade could vary from 400 to 600 or conversely from 20,000 to 24,000 .

Because so few 12 size Hampden collectors exisit I suspect there are still major discoveries to be made.However , I suspect that for 16 and 18 size watches that while current production estimates may be refined in most instances the estimates won't change that dramatically.

Bob

[Kent]

When I posted my comments on published quantity estimates for Dueber-Hampden movements, I overlooked Henry's fine work on the lookup table.

I'm not really worried about differences between 20,000 or 24,000 for the total production of a specific watch, (open-face, 17-jewel, model 4, etc.), although it's nice to be able to improve estimates as more data is assembled. I'm more concerned about the estimates of much less common, high grade movements, say a 16-size, model 1, 17-jewel, open-face, grade No. 104. Watches like these were made in small enough quantities that errors of fifty or a hundred in the estimated production are very significant (try serial number 1045432 in Henry's Dueber-Hampden Lookup Table (http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/db_resch/Hampden_1230.html)).

[HenryB]

Agreed Kent 100 % with the production estimates on the lower production watches. They are all subject to reported sightings, correct discriptions of the watch and of course a mistake in data input.

Obviously to keep the lookup file small for internet viewing, I do not show the serial numbers of the watches online.

On the 104's, attached is a file showing what is in the current database for the Hampden 104 SR and 104 grades and provide insight on the grade variation production estimates and grade estimates in the database.

Obviously if you input anything in this range of serial numbers, the 104 grades will be displayed accordingly on the screen.

These production estimate changes dynamically, when I change a serial number or a discription.

[Jon Hanson]

I am trying to get some opinions about the dial on my recently acquired 16 size Hampden 23j Special Railway.Do you think it is the original/correct dial.




My 23j SP (3,327,060) is in the first production run (1919) and the second run 3,451001 to 3,451356 (1921) was near the end of the RR watches they made.

The Hampden Watch Co book shows a dial similar to mine serial 3,459,853 page 60. The Mongomery dial shown for a 23j Special Railway says Hampden, not Dueber Hampden

Any thoughts would be appreciated .

Bob



Bob,

My gold dome 23 J (just as yours) has a DS Arabic dial with bold numerials, signed HAMPDEN in print. My 21J NR in the same area 3.3 million also has the same dial as my 23J. I believe these to be all original, as I have had them (obtained from virgin sources) for 35 years.

[Kent]

Henry:

I can only applaud the results of the work you've put into your interactive data bases, and appreciate the fact that you've undertaken the task.

The estimated production quantities you generate are very helpful, as long as people can keep in mind the fact that they are estimates (a point frequently skipped over when people look at published/online date vs. serial number tables). Also, not having Hernick & Arnold's book (or not bothering to look in it if they do), people sometimes fail to realize how few reported examples there might be of the less common watches, or how large the gaps are between possible runs.

This situation can only improve as estimates and other data (such as you make available) generates interest and additional examples get reported. When Ed and I looked at early examples of the 18-size Special Railway, not knowing Dueber-Hampden's production practices, we estimated runs as small as 30, a number which may, or may not, be absurd.

Keep up the good work,

[rschussel]

Henry
I can second what Kent said. The Hampden Watch Co book and your Hampden interactive database has taken our hobby to a new level.

When I first started collecting 12 size Hampdens about 11 years ago there was no information available to me. Many of the grades and variants were unknown to me. Your database allows me to do in a few seconds what use to take hours trying to determine the grade of a watch on Ebay and its scaritity.

My one request is that you create a summary much like Waynes Elgin database.The grade summary section should contains the grade/variant, number of runs and estimated production. An asterisk could be placed next to those estimates where you are looking for more serial numbers .Another symbol could be used to show those estimates based on 4 or less serial numbers.

I feel this type of summary will give Hampden collecting a large boost. I don't think most collectors are aware of how scarce many high grade Hampdens are in comparision to the other major companies.

Again,I don't know how to thank you enough for what you have done.

Bob

[Jerry Treiman]

For what it is worth, a friend of mine has a 21j "New Railway" #3,397,985 and its dial is marked DUEBER HAMPDEN. This was his grandfather's watch -- he worked for Hampden at the end and went to Russia with the factory machinery to help the Russians get production under way.

[Kent]

Thanks Jerry - How silly of me not to think of this before. These are some of the watches listed in our data base which have dials signed "Dueber-Hampden"

3,323,084
3,325,163
3,325,368
3,325,575
3,325,641
3,325,767
3,327,060 - Bob's watch
3,327,477
3,327,488
3,327,618

I think that these bracket Bob's watch nicely,

[rschussel]

Kent
I would like to thank you and everyone else for their help.

It seems from the list of watches in your database that the dial on my watch is appropiate. It is also interesting to note that the lowest and highest known serial number in this production run had Dueber Hampden dials.

What stills blows my mind is that my 23j watch ( in excellent condition) which is very scarce (production of 1,100) could be purchased for less than a common 21j Bunn Special in similar condition.

I would encourage people to start using Henry Burgell's Hampden database. Collectors will shocked to learn that many of the high grade Hampden which sell for less than a common RR Hamilton,Illinois Waltham or Elgin are very scarce.

Bob

[Kent]

... It is also interesting to note that the lowest and highest known serial number in this production run had Dueber Hampden dials. ...
Bob



Wait a minute Bob! That isn't what I posted. I just listed some of the nearby serial numbers whose watches were listed in our data base as having Dueber-Hampden dials. If Ed and I didn't list them as having Dueber-Hampden dials, than either we didn't know, or if we saw the watch or a picture on eBay, it didn't have a Dueber-Hampden dial. Here are some more serial numbers.


3,327,059 > Not noted as Dueber-Hampden dial (probably not one)

3,327,703 > Not noted as Dueber-Hampden dial (probably not one)
3,327,738 > Not noted as Dueber-Hampden dial (probably not one)
3,327,763 > Not noted as Dueber-Hampden dial
3,327,896 > Not noted as Dueber-Hampden dial

[rschussel]

Kent

I understand that Hampden factory records are not available. Thus one can never be 100% sure whether a dial is the factory original.

That being said your notes suggest that some of the dials in runs prior to my watch and in the same run as my watch had the Dueber Hampden name on them. I might note that the same phenomenon exists for 12 size watches of the same time period.

Thus the conclusion that I drew is that dial is appropiate . I did not mean to say that the dial is original to that watch and would never claim that.

I hope my rationale and explanation helps.

Bob

[Kent]

Bob:

The only point I tried to make in my most previous post was that not all of the watches in our data base from that production run were shown in my original post of serial numbers and that neither the first known, nor the last known of the run had dials signed "Dueber-Hampden."

I share your conclusion that the dial is appropiate.

[StanJS]

> What stills blows my mind is that my 23j watch ( in excellent condition)
> which is very scarce (production of 1,100) could be purchased for less
> than a common 21j Bunn Special in similar condition.

Bob,

This can mean one of a couple of things:

1) You got a good deal. Congrats!
2) There are fewer Hampden collectors, thus those watches are less sought and less valuable to collectors. Tastes change. Maybe things will swing towards Hampdens some day.

Nice watch. Enjoy it!

Stan

[Tom Huber]

Stan, Watch prices are driven by demand. For whatever reason, Illinois watches are in more demand right now than are Hampdens. Very nice Hampdens are undervalued now and some great buys can be had.

Tom

[StanJS]

Tom,

That is what I said. We are in violent agreement.

Cheers,
Stan