How to tell from Gold Plate, Gold filled or Solid Gold??

[DADSTIMESHOP]

I know the markings on the inside lid I can look up.. but there are so many.. How do you no which is which.. and how can you tell if you have a Gold Filled or a solid gold case.. Also how can you tell if the case you have that is gold filled or Rolled gold which Karat it is? Also I always see the serial numbers on the inside lid? where do you look that number up.. is there an online data base.. like for the movements? I was thinking of buying a gold tester.. would this be wise? or are all cases usally the same??

Thanks
James

[Dr. Jon]

Generally if there is a warrantee period it is gold filled. This apples even it the warrantee is permanent. If it is solid precious metal it will usually say Guaranteed US Assay. For lower than 14 carat it will say this even when it does not say gold. I don;t know of US plated cases but European ones will have a number followed by "microns". A micron is a thousandth of a millimeter and is the estimated thickness of the plating.

So far I know of no data base for case serial numbers. I know at least one US case maker who often put serial numbers on the case to match the movement.

My experience is that marks are relaible. I have never used a tester but the people I know have a lot of skill in this. It is not easy and it of use mostly for unmarked items like watch chains.

For cases, it is usually possible to tell by feel.
addition

[rschussel]

The only way that I am aware of to tell by feel if a case is solid gold or gold filled is to hold two comparable cases ( one gold filled and the other solid gold) for a few minutes in your hand to warm them up. After you put them on table for minute or two the one that cools off quicker is gold filled.

James
Unless you know what you are doing, testing a case can leave undesiriable damage.
,Shugurts Price Guide has pictures of many of the symbols used for solid gold and gold filled. Periodically this Board has discussed this issue and possibly someone can find an old thread.

With Hampden watches whether the anchor used as part of their symbol is raised or not can be an indicator of gold filled vs solid gold. That being said they are many exceptions. Also Hampden cases that are marked Special are gold filled and for later Howard watches J Boss cases are gold filled.

By becoming knowledgable you can protect yourself.
Bob

[Jon Hanson]

No, gold has a special "feel" to it, plus the bend/rigid factor

[Tom Huber]

I agree wth Jon. After you handle enough of these cases you can tell solid gold by the feel of it.

Tom

[Don Dahlberg]

What Jon and Tom said.

Don

[ronwatch]

No matter how you hold it, look at it or whatever, nothing gets by the ACID TEST. It is a simple process that every jeweler uses to confirm the ct of very rare or expensive items. It is a very simple test and done right (use the sharp edge of the cover on the FINE stone that comes with any acid test kit ) NEVER NEVER put the acid on ant part of the watch. Dnoe propoerly no damage or evidence of the test can be detected. Many PW's are marked 14K 18K and are nothing more than heavy gold plate I test every PW if in doubt.

Ron

[Jon Hanson]

and many a fine case has been ruined by the acid test and/or filing a groove to check for the cases content!

[Don Dahlberg]

The slate - acid test will give you the gold content of the surface material, but not the interior (unless you damage to the case). In this test, the case is rubbed over a piece of slate leaving a small amount of gold behind. This is treated with nitric acid and timed to see how long it takes to dissolve. If it does not dissolve, it is tested with aqua regia and timed. This time is compared with standard gold samples that come with the kit.

Great damage is done when people file into the interior to see if the gold goes all the way through. There is no excuse or need for this.

Ron is correct for the surface.
Jon is correct for the interior.

Don

[Tom McIntyre]

I would think that the impedance gold testers should work, in principle. I have no experience with them. Does anyone know how well they work?

You should be able to measure the acoustic impedance also to get information, but it would take a bit of development to get a consistent set of values for calibration.

[Jon Hanson]

The slate - acid test will give you the gold content of the surface material, but not the interior (unless you damage to the case). In this test, the case is rubbed over a piece of slate leaving a small amount of gold behind. This is treated with nitric acid and timed to see how long it takes to dissolve. If it does not dissolve, it is tested with aqua regia and timed. This time is compared with standard gold samples that come with the kit.

Great damage is done when people file into the interior to see if the gold goes all the way through. There is no excuse or need for this.

Ron is correct for the surface.
Jon is correct for the interior.

Don

Intereior--heck, I have seen many a GF blazer case filed on the outside!

[terry hall]

Intereior--heck, I have seen many a GF blazer case filed on the outside!


You Betcha!!!
Or the tell tale 'spots' on the inside of the back, or curvette......

EVEN WHEN MARKED GOLD FILLED....... :bang:

[Jon Hanson]

a total disregard for these wonderful objects .

I have seen huge acid marks in plain view (inside, outside), file marks or cuts with a knife everywhere--so, if gold they got scrapped; if not gold they care less!:bang: ......................Just another day in the life of a scrapper!

[DADSTIMESHOP]

Holy smokes I would never want to scrape on any of my watches!! I was thinking more about the electronic ones.. and also the color does that have something to do with it... may I should just post them up here when I can't figure them out.. you guys do a lot better than. me...

Thanks for all the wonderful knowledge you guys have!!!

[Running slow]

I am sorry to all the watchmakers out there but I am very disapointed that they took it upon themselves to mark up the inside of watches. I have a couple that are defaced by the scratching performed on them.
Sorry but thats my beef and I am sticking to it .

[Jon Hanson]

The bottom line is that we care about collecting and preservation others ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN PROFITS!"

[Jon Hanson]

Hi everyone,

To clarify: some folks that test to melt usually do the following:

1. use speed (example, using hammers to remove movements); this is done because gold sellers want to lock in so many ozs at such and such a price for the day (fridays are the worst). This is the worse case senerio because "watch beakers" (as they are called in the trade) LACK knowledge about detent stems or how to remove movements correctly.

2. test to scrap that day.

3. quick test due to large quantities.

Frequently, beautiful GF cases were filed on the outside (faster) to determine if the inner layers were brass or to use the acid test on thick GF (25 year cases are a good example). And, remember that some solid gold cases have brass or GF curvettes.

Major scrapping is presently happening as gold hit $700.00 per oz. Other high points of scrapping happened during the great depression and during the "gold rush" of the late 70s, early 80s when gold rose to over $800.

A quick story: It was 1980ish when I actually saved an all original Premier Maximus 18K Waltham watch with a perfect dial from the scrapper--the guy, a dear old late friend of mine out of Long Island (Fast Freddie Werner) was ready to hammer out the movement and scrap the case!

Whew! But, think of all the other great ones they were not saved? It is sickening.....................

[terry hall]

And everyone note one of Jon's comments....

was ready to hammer out the movement and scrap the case!


This is Literal !!! :o

To same time!!!

[Jon Hanson]

And everyone note one of Jon's comments....

was ready to hammer out the movement and scrap the case!


This is Literal !!! :o

To same time!!!



Terry,

You meant to SAVE time???

[terry hall]

indeed I did! :bang:

thank you....

[Fred Hansen]

I would think that the impedance gold testers should work, in principle. I have no experience with them. Does anyone know how well they work?

I know I've seen NAWCC members carry these electronic impedance devices at shows but have never seen one used or heard anything of their accuracy.

I would also be very interested in hearing how accurate and effective these are with judging watch cases and if there is no negative impact from their use.

Fred

[Jon Hanson]

I have now received 7 phone calls and emails on this good topic.

One collector asked about the case spring weight--the answer is that the movement has to be removed first, then the scrappers use needle nose pliers to yank out the springs.

Also, I have seen some gold cases with lower carat frames (center sections) and curvettes, and this is why many scrappers round off different carat, example 14K at a base 55% versus 58.5% (the honest weighers) to allow for errors.

Also, some movements were scrapped for gold wheels and settings; but the good news is: some scrappers in the long past saved high grade movements BECAUSE of the gold; thus, maybe in the long run this helped in the survival of better movements from the trash. They also saved certain companies due to name id.

[Jon Hanson]

I know the markings on the inside lid I can look up.. but there are so many.. How do you no which is which.. and how can you tell if you have a Gold Filled or a solid gold case.. Also how can you tell if the case you have that is gold filled or Rolled gold which Karat it is? Also I always see the serial numbers on the inside lid? where do you look that number up.. is there an online data base.. like for the movements? I was thinking of buying a gold tester.. would this be wise? or are all cases usally the same??

Thanks
James

Hi James,

There is no serial number list for case makers.

How to tell?

Feel, color, weight, bend, hallmarks, makers, marks, mfg. etc., etc. It all takes time and is much more difficult over the internet vs. "my staring and comparing" in person (holding it in your hand). Plese run out and look at every watch you can and ask questions--in my opinion, this is the very best way to learn this stuff--in the field.

Good luck and you can always ask here.

Jon, 50 years playing" with watches

[ronwatch]

I posted this on another Message Board and thought it fit into this discussion on scraping.

Most of you collectors, unless you’ve been locked in a closet for the past 100 years, are aware of what the price of gold has traditionally done to the gold watches. They get scrapped ! Fortunately in some cases I have access to watches before they get scrapped. Unfortunately I can’t save every one headed to the pot. It’s like tying to save every orphan in Africa, it’s imposable. Many dealers, jewelers and pawn shops realize a “fast” profit in the scrap market. Why wait to sell it as a complete PW when they can turn it around the next day.. Many watches are worth more in gold than the value shown in the “Guide “and the jeweler and pawn shops have this Guide. ”( I’m not blaming the Guide on this one because many of these scrappers have Guides that are 2 or 3 years old) It is not uncommon for a 18S 14K PW to have $1,200 to $1,400 in gold This is especially true in ladies PW’s. of which there is little interest or market. .When it was the fashion, large heavy men’s PW’s , including box hinges were married to low grade movements. People back then were more interested in the status of the case, so as long as it keep time the movement was of no significance. At the rate gold is and it’s expected to head, the collectors won’t pay the gold value which is more than many low grade gold cased PW’s are valued. PW’s that take a bigger hit are European Watches. Many are nameless or rare pieces with names not well known to most collectors let alone the scrappers

Now here’s where I have a real bone to pick and I blame NAWCC. They are a great organization, of which I am proud to be a member, but how they can allow an advertiser in the MART ( April 2007 page 16 and previous issues ) to promote the destruction of the very foundation they stand for. Higher Markets Mean More Money for You “Sell your gold/gold filled and silver cases “by the pound” for scrape. That is equal the National Wildlife Federation welcoming design house’s to advertise to Zoos to sell their collections for exotic furs/skins fashions. Although parallel in the concept the big difference is you can’t breed new pocket watches. Please don’t reply and say I’m over the edge, every animal is god’s precious gift or I’m being too melodramatic or The Constitution "Freedon of the Press", I’m just trying to get a point across to the NAWCC.

[b]Ccondoning the profiteers of the scrap market is not in the best interest of preserving our hobby or Horology

[Jon Hanson]

I posted this on another Message Board and thought it fit into this discussion on scraping.

Most of you collectors, unless you’ve been locked in a closet for the past 100 years, are aware of what the price of gold has traditionally done to the gold watches. They get scrapped ! Fortunately in some cases I have access to watches before they get scrapped. Unfortunately I can’t save every one headed to the pot. It’s like tying to save every orphan in Africa, it’s imposable. Many dealers, jewelers and pawn shops realize a “fast” profit in the scrap market. Why wait to sell it as a complete PW when they can turn it around the next day.. Many watches are worth more in gold than the value shown in the “Guide “and the jeweler and pawn shops have this Guide. ”( I’m not blaming the Guide on this one because many of these scrappers have Guides that are 2 or 3 years old) It is not uncommon for a 18S 14K PW to have $1,200 to $1,400 in gold This is especially true in ladies PW’s. of which there is little interest or market. .When it was the fashion, large heavy men’s PW’s , including box hinges were married to low grade movements. People back then were more interested in the status of the case, so as long as it keep time the movement was of no significance. At the rate gold is and it’s expected to head, the collectors won’t pay the gold value which is more than many low grade gold cased PW’s are valued. PW’s that take a bigger hit are European Watches. Many are nameless or rare pieces with names not well known to most collectors let alone the scrappers

Now here’s where I have a real bone to pick and I blame NAWCC. They are a great organization, of which I am proud to be a member, but how they can allow an advertiser in the MART to promote the destruction of the very foundation they stand for. Higher Markets Mean More Money for You “Sell your gold/gold filled and silver cases “by the pound” for scrape. That is equal the National Wildlife Federation welcoming design house’s to advertise to Zoos to sell their collections for exotic furs/skins fashions. Although parallel in the concept the big difference is you can’t breed new pocket watches. Please don’t reply and say I’m over the edge, every animal is god’s precious gift or I’m being too melodramatic or The Constitution "Freedon of the Press", I’m just trying to get a point across to the NAWCC.

Yes, Ron, these are sad days for watches and watch collectors.

Many collectors do not buy gold watches because they would be putting too much money into the value of the case; watches have become a very specialized industry and the higher gold goes the fewer buyers for the more common items and the more that these type of watches get scrapped.

Also, the ladies fashion statement (watch and chain) is now NOT alive at the present. Who collects common 6 and 8 size Elgin 7/11j movements or watches, except for multicolors or killer ones? Unsigned common 12s Swiss are even worse, esp if they have some wear.

WHAT TO DO--PRAY FOR GOLD TO DROP?