Unusual Elgin 18s

[tw42]

Hi all...

I have a fully functional movement, which acording to the Elgin records is:

Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
29099706 29099001 1000 1926 317 18s ofn5p 15j e

The problem I have though is that it is apparently a 5th model movement, pendant set and wound according to it being a 317 grade ofn5p code. It isn't though, at least not from the diagrams shown in the Elgin Parts Catalogue.

Looking at the same page in the Elgin Parts Catalogue as the one showing the 5th model, it appears to be a 7th model movement (as shown below it). But it isn't, at least not strictly speaking. Confusing eh?

It appears to be a 7th model, but the lever isn't a proper lever, it is just a spung lever, which doesn't appear to do anything when moved except go back to its original position (haven't taken the movement out of the case holder yet, so please excuse the vagueness of this discription). The lever doesn't have a thumb-tab to extract it, and it doesnt move outward anyway, just from side to side.

The movement has the same top plate (showing the serial number) as the 7th model, including the jewel screws, and also has the screw-set regulator, neither of which are on the 5th model. The top plate doesn't appear altered in any way.

Has anyone ever come accross this before?
Have I been confused by an excellent craftsman who has managed to mimic the look of a 7th grade movement?
Or did Elgin do this to a 7th grade movement to make it pendant set and wound to a higher grade than the 5th grade movements?

Any information on this would be most welcome.

Regards,

tw42

[Tom Huber]

good clear pix of the movement and a pic of the pillar plate with the dial removed would help.

Tom

[tw42]

OK, here are the pics requested...:
http://theykeep.lookingat.us/18sPlate.JPG

http://theykeep.lookingat.us/18sleveropen.JPG

http://theykeep.lookingat.us/18sleverclosed.JPG


Any better idea what movement it is?

On checking the movement of the lever, it does appear to move the setting mechanism---as indicated by the hands in the second and third picture---but so does a spare crown and stem (minicing the pendant crown movement when in the case). It appears to be both pendant set and also lever set.

According to the serial and code it isn't meant to have the lever-set function, nor the other higher-grade parts on the top-plate.

tw42
Am I missing something here?

Does anyone know about these movements?

[Paul Regan]

Mini knows the answer, or possibly Pluto!

[Tom Huber]

I believe your watch is a model 5, pendant set. What you are pointing out as being a lever is actually the mechanism used by a watchmaker to put the watch in the winding mode when out of the case. The position in the 2d pic shows it in the winding mode. The position in the last pic shows it in the setting position.

Tom

[tw42]

Many thanks for your reply Tom.

Sorry for posing what in hindsight appears to be rather an elementary question. I don't mind bearing my ignorance in this forum, as I'm sure there must be others just as unfamiliar with pocket watch movements. They do appear an altogether different animal from the wristwatches I have become more accustomed to over the years I have been collecting them.

I am new to pocket watches and have a lot to learn about all watches, I know... but forgive me if I appear somewhat pedantic in my search for an answer to my riddle of why such a movement which, I agree, does appear to be a model 5, but also has component parts that are certainly more akin to a 7 than a 5.

Surely the retained gold jewel settings and screwed stop for the regulator, which I understand are model 7 attributes, should not be on this if it is a model 5?

So, back to part of my original question... why does this grade 317, which is classed as a model 5, have what appears to be a model 7 top plate?

These pics are from the Elgin Parts Catalogue:

http://theykeep.lookingat.us/5thmodel.JPG http://theykeep.lookingat.us/7thmodel.JPG

These are where my confusion originated. The question I keep asking myself is "why does a grade 317 model 5 have a model 7 top plate?"

Noticing that 261500 grade 317s were made over 188 runs, and also noting that only 1000 of this movement were made (probably just a single run) is it possible that a model 7 top plate was married to a grade 317 pillar plate, to result in a more accurate movement than the standard 317?

I also notice that the 21-jewelled 18s grade 411 is listed as a model 5, but without reference I cannot tell if this model 5 also has the model 7-style top plate, or in fact whether other 18s grades listed as model 5 also have model 7-style top plates.

I'm sure there is a perfectly obvious and straightforward answer to all this...

Can anyone enlighten me?

Does anyone have a picture of an 18s 411 they can post?

Tw42

[Tom Huber]

The only difference between the model 5 and the model 7 is that the model 5 is pendent set and the model 7 is lever set. The setting mechanisms are different, but basically most all other parts are the same. Each model was made in a variety of grades--from low grade to high grade. The over finish and adjustments can vary on both models.

Tom

[Tom McIntyre]

Tom, do some of the model 7's have the 3rd pillar screw as is shown on the model 5?

That seems to be a distinct difference between the two diagrams.

[tw42]

You have put my mind to rest Tom H, as the same principle applies to the Elgin wristwatch movements I am so fond of. I knew there must be a simple explanation.

It appears the movement is a model 5 with gold(?)-set deep-red ruby and diamond jewels, and high-grade adjustments.

I procured the complete watch from an online auction and paid very little for it as the picture and description indicated that the setting lever had broken on the movement. When it arrived I discovered that it set and wound, and the mechanism worked just fine, hence the initial confusion.

I made sure the lever was fully retracted when reinserting it into the case, and now it can’t be seen. I guess someone allowed the end to protrude into the slot on the case when they put it back together beforehand and it looked like something it wasn’t.

Many thanks for your help …

tw42

[Tom Huber]

Tom M. You piqued my curiosity. I have only one model 7 here at the house. I laid it down side by side with a model 5 and could see no difference in the pilar screws. I have no idea if there are other grades of model 7 that might differ.

Tom

[Tom McIntyre]

I was referring to the screw next to the balance cock in the factory diagrams. Perhaps it is something else. I don't own any of either of these.

[Jerry Treiman]

I looked at a couple of 5th models and my examples do not have that extra screw next to the cock. Does anyone have an example with it? I suspect it is an error in the drawing.

[Fred Hansen]

It appears the movement is a model 5 with gold(?)-set deep-red ruby and diamond jewels


I expect the jewel settings on this watch are composition metal and not gold. Comp settings would be typical of a middle-level grade Elgin at this time, while gold settings would be very unusual for this grade of movement and instead would be expected only on the grades which were priced at the higher priced end of the Elgin line at this time.

There is an illustration of gold vs. composition settings on John Cote's website at this link ...

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/Slide_23.htm

Composition settings can have different colors and the color of the settings in John's image is a bit different than the watch here, but gold settings generally have a very characteristic look ... as John writes even when dirty!

Also I do not believe there is any diamond jeweling in this watch ... the hole jewels would not be diamonds and the cap jewels on the balance would not be expected as diamond on this grade and do not appear from the photo to be. I know there have been some good discussions in the past on this board about what stones actually were used in jeweling the different grades of American watches and some searching of this board should turn these up.

But of course none of this means anything against your watch! These are the features that would be expected of this movement, and your watch is a nice example of the type of well made movement that made Elgin a very successful company over many decades.

Fred

[Tom Huber]

Tom M. The screw located next to the balance cock is found on model 5's. That is a later elgin addition to the model. The screw is designed for the watchmaker to put the watch into the winding position when it is out of the case.

Tom

[tw42]

Thank you for sharing Fred. Very interesting... .. . I don't learn unless I ask. :)
TW42