Early Waltham Coin "EAGLE" cases

[ckeithjohnson]

Shugart's Watch Guide has several listings among early key wind coin Walthams that apply to watches with an "eagle" case. Can anyone post a picture of what this "eagle" hallmark or whatever you call it,looks like? Thanks in advance.

[ckeithjohnson]

Shugart's Watch Guide has several listings among early key wind coin Walthams that apply to watches with an "eagle" case. Can anyone post a picture of what this "eagle" hallmark or whatever you call it,looks like? Thanks in advance.

[ckeithjohnson]

Someone must have an "Eagle" case they could post a picture of. If the posting is too much hassle on the board, just send me an attachment on an Email. Thanks, ckeithjohnson@earthlink.net

[Kent]

Oops!
I didn't notice the word "coin."

[peg leg]

Kent, I did not post to Keith's request because he referenced coin. I have them with eagle stamps for gold.........

Keith R...

[Jeff Hess]

Their were zillions of silversmiths and case makers that used that AMerican eagle symbol. Will post some in a few.

Jeff

[Jeff Hess]

AS Kent knows (and shared) jewelers (and their silversmith/goldsmith) would often use the same mark on their silver as their gold.

What has traditionally been called "pseudo hallmakrs" is now getting into quite a science.

There are several online sources but theone silver book I recommend "Manufacturers marks on American Coin Silver" by McGrew.

Most of he makers are listed as spoon makers but many of these guys were casemakers too. Many of the makers listed in this book are silversmiths simply listed as Watchmakers.

Here are a few of the watchmakers who used eagles (varioius sizes and inside various cartouches) of an eagle:

J Foster New york
William Whitlock New york
Joseph Lukey Pittsburgh
J Wallace Pittsburgh
It goes on and on but one stands out as it is listed as a watchmaker/silversmith/retailer in BOSTON in 1857 (and using an Eagle) is Lincoln & Foss.

Here are the pics of Lincoln & Foss'smark. Remember, scores of people used the eagle as a mark (other popular marks are Stars and Busts)

I have some silver cases laying around and will mathc them up with the marks in the book when I get a chance.

I find this very facsinating.

http://static.flickr.com/34/100606756_87ef366713.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/28/100606755_4f83163d78.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/19/100606757_c00bbc12df.jpg

(The first pic is one of four pages of differnt eagle marks. The second and third are actual pics of a mark used by watch retailers in Boston in 1857.)

[Jeff Hess]

Oops, i had the order reveresed... but you get the picture..

JEff

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Interesting thread.

Just a couple minor additions, located on my bench is a J. T. S. & Co. (J. T. Scott & Co., no doubt(?)) coin silver case with an eagle mark. I recall that a case in my collection marked "Aurora, Ill." also has an eagle on it, but no makers name.

Here's an eagle, but not on a case:

http://hometown.aol.com/gfrauen10/english.jpg

[ckeithjohnson]

Thanks for all your replies. Whhat I am really interested in is the "Eagle' stamping on the early Waltham Coin cases. I think I figured out how to post http://imagehost.darkernet.co.uk/i/MVC-150F.JPG

Is this the "eagle" case referred to by Shugart? This image is from an American Watch Company, Coin Silver Hunting case.

Thanks again........Keith

[mikeh]

Keith,

See the pictures in this auction (already ended): Early Waltham (http://cgi.ebay.com/WALTHAM-MDL-1857-EARLY-WALTHAM-SILVER-CASE-with-EAGLE_W0QQitemZ8900813002QQcategoryZ10314QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

This is what I've always considered to be the Waltham case with the eagle marking. However, it is just my assumption as I don't have anything concrete to base it on. Looks similar to yours too.

[peg leg]

Keith J......Looks like Mike confirmed your coin eagle for for early Waltham. Here are some other examples (but as Jeff indicates there are many versions). Since Mike H. answered yours I'll post a couple of gold ones. First is BWCCO (case similar to Kents post above and second one is an early Waltham 16k). Not the best picks but you can see the stamp.

Keith R...

http://static.flickr.com/34/100860254_662cc4b753.jpg


http://static.flickr.com/30/100860256_69d60fe472.jpg

[Jeff Hess]

IS the assumption here that Waltham cased thhese themselves? If not then did they use one company exclusively?

JEff Hess

[peg leg]

Jeff, I've seen about 3 of these cases over the last year. All were nameless 18s and each had same case design, eagle stamp and all within the same case number range. I assumed Waltham had them made. Since I own only one, hoping someone with another can shed some light on this(so I;m assuming Waltham contracted out exclusively until there is more info).

Keith R...

http://static.flickr.com/19/94962593_6df30f4dd0.jpg

[BrianC]

I believe Waltham made sterling and coin silver cases with their eagle hallmark.
Brian C.

[peg leg]

Believe Brian C. is correct on coin cases.

[ciftekazma]

I recently bought this watch , is this 16K gold ? Could you give me more information about this watch?Thanks



http://i9.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/85/9a/4da2_1.JPG


http://i9.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/85/9a/4c80_1.JPG


http://i6.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/85/9a/4d22_1.JPG


<IMG SRC="http://i11.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/85/9a/4850_1_b.JPG
">

[Paul Regan]

Hey Keith, I am sending you two pics of early Waltham eagles. Both are on '59 cases. Paul R.

[IMHO]

Paul,

Do your pics confirm peg legs assertions about the Waltham 16K stamp, or is the jury still out?

Dave

[Paul Regan]

Dave, the two pics I sent to Keith were of silver cases. Paul

[Paul Regan]

Let's see if I can add a pic of the Waltham eagle cases. Paul

[Jon Hanson]

Jeff,

correct title of the silver book by ............Mcgrew?????????????????????

thanks

[Jeff Hess]

http://www.925-1000.com/McGrew.html

hERE IS A LINK TO DR. MCGREWS BOOK

Keep in mind that only about 15 to 20% of this book is about watch case makers. Most are listed simply as "silversmiths".


Jeff Hess

[marking_time]

Hi,
I am researching this Am. Watch Co. Sterling Silver case to see if it is an "eagle" case. This case houses a P.S. Bartlett-11J-Model 1857-KW/KS. Ehrhardt's "American Watch Company" lists SN 269158 as manufactured in Dec. 1866. Shugart's PG gives a substantial value difference depending on whether the mov't is cased with an "Eagle inside case lid." I believe this is an example of an "Eagle inside case lid." Marked inside the front cover, "Am.WatchCo.Waltham,Mass.-Warranted-Sterling Silver" and "G251." Marked inside the back cover, "G251" Marked inside the cuvette (dust cover) "G251" and a tiny right-facing eagle. The eagle appears to me like the eagles found in this and other threads. The 2 1/2 oz. case appears to be original to the mov't.

26452 26453 26454 26455

Can any of the Waltham experts verify that this is an "Eagle inside case lid" listed by Shugart? Were these "Am.W.Co.(Eagle) silver HC" made in both coin and sterling silver?

Thanks
Mike Robie

[Jon Hanson]

What I view at the two on the left is a later case and not to what Roy was referring.

[marking_time]

Jon,
If this is a later case, what do you make of the "eagle" on the cuvette?
Thanks
Mike

[Jon Hanson]

I believe Roy was addressing the early 1860ish and before cases that held early Walthams. The case signature pertains to a much later case

[Bryan Eyring]

Mike R;

What I find interesting about your case is the lack of reeding around the top of the cuvette. Every eagle case I have seen has this reeding. Also as Jon stated, your "Am. Watch Co." script is the later style (ie not wavy with the eagle underneath the script). The presence of the eagle by itself on the cuvette is also very odd...almost like a production afterthought. My guess is that this case was made during a period when they were finally phasing out the presence of the eagle.

Also, I cannot tell for sure but your dust cover appears to be made of albata - can you confirm/deny this?

Regards,
Bryan

[Fred Hansen]

Here is a pic of the eagle mark that was in the case of a 57 model Wm. Ellery at 48K serial number I owned a few months back ...

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=3763

Fred

[Bryan Eyring]

Haha that's funny Fred, I was just looking for photos of this watch on 149 for this very reason. Thanks for taking the time to find them. That is an interesting hallmark that I have never seen before. I dug out a 6XXXX PS Bartlett last night because I thought that it too had an eagle case but lo and behold it is only marked with a passant lion. It contains no other hallmarks pertaining to manufacturer, metal content, or date of manufacture but it is a heavy case that appears to be either coin or sterling. I will try to post some pics of it.

Did anyone else here opt to purchase the McGrew book?

Regards,
Bryan

[Paul Regan]

McGrew book? Paul (I just looked back and know the McGrew book.)
Check out post #21 for a good example of the "early" eagle

[marking_time]

Mike R;

What I find interesting about your case is the lack of reeding around the top of the cuvette. Every eagle case I have seen has this reeding. Also as Jon stated, your "Am. Watch Co." script is the later style (ie not wavy with the eagle underneath the script). The presence of the eagle by itself on the cuvette is also very odd...almost like a production afterthought. My guess is that this case was made during a period when they were finally phasing out the presence of the eagle.

Also, I cannot tell for sure but your dust cover appears to be made of albata - can you confirm/deny this?

Regards,
Bryan

Bryan,
I have owned a few cases with albata cuvettes. This cuvette does not appear to be albata. It has the same look and feel as the rest of the sterling silver case. There is no reeding on the cuvette, just the design around the keyhole. The crystal is hinged at 12. The exterior front cover has a blank cartouche. It seems odd to me that the makers mark is under the front cover, but not under the back cover or cuvette. The frame is also marked G251.
When did Waltham start using this style makers mark? Could this case be original to the Dec.1866 mov't or is it a later recase?
Thanks to all.
Mike

[Bryan Eyring]

I think your case is likely original and is actually an early example of this style of text. I think the presence of the eagle but the lack of reeding further supports my belief that this is a "transitional period" case.

Jon - what do you think?

Regards,
Bryan

[Jon Hanson]

The simple answer is that these are Waltham made cases and they simply continued to use the eagle stamp on some.

Type and shape plus other styles dictate the period.

[marking_time]

You have answered my questions.
Thank you for your time and expertise.
Mike Robie

[Jon Hanson]

McGrew book? Paul (I just looked back and know the McGrew book.)
Check out post #21 for a good example of the "early" eagle

What is in this book that isn't in the Allan Green book?

[Paul Regan]

I do not know Jon, as I have neither. Paul

[Bryan Eyring]

Jon would that be Marks of American Silversmiths?

[Jon Hanson]

yes

[Bryan Eyring]

An interesting one I just picked up. Cuvette is engraved "John Lawler, 1860" but the movement dates to early 1866. Furthermore there is a watchpaper dated 1913 that indicates the serial number 205241. So if switched, not recently. Eagle and "Am. Watch Co." script is appropriate for the movement's period.
The "1860" could be commemorative but then why would someone only note the year and not the entire date? Has anyone seen use of this hallmark on an ~1860 case?

Regards,
Bryan

[Jon Hanson]

likely switched

[Bryan Eyring]

likely switched

So you think that the case IS 1860 but the movement is second gen?