the first watch Nuremberg egg

[FredWJensen]

I am trying to find information on the movement and mechanics of the world's first watch, the nuremberg egg invented by Peter Henlein in 1524.

[Jerry Matthews]

I am trying to find information on the movement and mechanics of the world's first watch, the nuremberg egg invented by Peter Henlein in 1524.

There is an illustration and a very brief description of the Peter Henlein watch on page 43 of Britten's Old Clocks and Watches and Their Makers (9th edition).

Jerry

[Kent]

The following if from “The Pocket Watch Handbook,” M. Cutmore, Arco Publishing, New York, NY, 1985, pp. 8-9:

The significant event that led to the earliest watches was the development spring power, which provided a convenient, portable power source. Although the earliest surviving spring-driven clock dates to 1525, evidence exists that shows they existed as early as 1455. As spring-driven clocks were developed and reduced in size, the watch “- which might be defined as a spring-driven timepiece (or clock) small enough to be carried unobtrusively on the person - came into being, … Some documents suggest watches were made in Nuremburg by Peter Hele or Henlein in the period 1500 to 1510. Others suggest that they originated in Italy, Flanders, or Burgundy.”

[Jerry Matthews]

Britten also offers an explanation as to why the watch is called "egg". It has nothing to do with it being egg-shaped. Britten says is is probably because of confusion of the German word "Ueurlein" meaning little clock with "Eyerlein" meaning little egg. Spoken in English, the two words would sound very similar.

[FredWJensen]

I appreciate your comments but I am surprised that there are no details available about the movement on the web. I guess I will have to check with NAWCC research perhaps in old publications. The mechanism of the thing seems more mysterious than the Lost Ark! One site refered to it as a mucket ball watch, I guess because of its shape. Another state that it was entirly composed of iron. It must have been a verge escapement but probably without a fusee.
I will let you know what I find. But pleae, if anyone finds anything let me know.

[Tom McIntyre]

I am pretty sure that the fusee predates the stackfreed that the Germans used quite a bit. But if you are having a hard time figuring out how to cut a fusee, a stackfreed would be a good alternative.

[Don Dahlberg]

Fred would like to know about the mechanism. I believe there are no known examples of watches from this era (very early 16th century) that still exist. Am I correct? This is far from my area of expertise.

I have an old book "A History of Waches and other Timekeepers" by James Kendal published 1892. It states that "There is a portable clock by Jacob Zech, belonging to the Society of Antiquaries, which was made in 1525. The case is a circular box of brass, gilt, measuring 9 3/4 inches in diameter by 5 inches in height." They still have it. See http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/specColl/SoA_images/detail.cfm?object=1230 It includes some great pictures of the movement.

Most of the evidence for early watches came from records of gifts, purchases and death inventories and not from the actual watches.

I believe the famous Mary Queen of Scots Skull Watch still exists. See http://www.history.rochester.edu/godeys/03-50/ammw.htm This watch is dated about 1587.

Does anyone know of other 16th century watches (spring clocks) that actually exist?

Don

[Frank Menez]

Time & Timekeepers by Willis I. Milham Page 33-

The early clock-watch of 1500 developed into the pocket watch. These oval watches are often spoken of as "Nurnberg eggs" Four of these transitional clock watches are illustrated in figs. 90 to 93.. The first three are in the Metropolitan Museum of Art NY City. etc etc etc

[jakraka]

H e r e (http://www.peterhenlein.de/) (click) is an interesting link. Unfortunately the page is available only in German for the moment, the English translation is not yet available. Though the images (= Fotogalerie) as well as the download (a movie) are interesting. The writer is stating, that this recently 'discovered' Henlein’s ball shaped watch is original – I doubt.

Regards

Jan

[FredWJensen]

I thank everyone for helping me.
I will looking into those publications mentioned, Thanks to everyone for taking your time to assist me.

Great German site. I only wonder why this great site did not show up in my google search. Google is not as extensive as I thought.
Thanks
I really enjoyed it!
Even a movie of the watch working.
I can't believe he used a crude fusee!!!
It is fantastic. The fusee and everything looks hand made,
like it was hammered out of medieval iron, "Which is what it is"
Thanks.
Rather than a fusee chain, it looks like he used a length of cord! Fantastic!

[FredWJensen]

I put the prigional web pag you gave into google and it translated it into English. The images only seem to work in the German versiom, however.
Thanks again, it is a great site.

[Tom McIntyre]

Supposedly the early fusees used cat gut like weight driven clocks once did (and some still do).

[FredWJensen]

There does not seem to be a hairspring of any sort.
I wonder how he got the massive balance wheel to recoil back and forth?

[RON in PA]

No hairsprings until Hooke and Huygins in 1675. Verge movements will work without a hairspring and they did so for the first approximately 350-400 years of their existence. If you watched the video of the watch in action did you notice the irregularity of the movement. How much was due to the lack of a hair spring and how much was due to wear and tear, I don't know, but verges of that era were very inaccurate.

For those of you who have not gone to the web page on Henlein I strongly recommend it for the great photography and the effort made to show how a verge works.:clap:

[FredWJensen]

Ron, the Verge fusees in the 1700's and later have a small hairspring like spring around the balance.
This early watch does not have one yet still works. What creates the force to cause the balance to spring back without getting stuck at one end or the other?

[FredWJensen]

Ron, I guess I have to understand how a foliot clock works to understand how these primitive movements can work without a hairspring.
I guess, once the balance begins turning or foliot weights begin swinging then the pressure from the spring/weight can drive the movement.
I need to get a cheap foliot clock to study this.

[Tom McIntyre]

The balance or foliot hits the other pallet and bounces back. It operates by inertia and recoil. No spring is needed. The mechanism is still used in some very rough mechanical timing applications. I have some old drum recorders that use either a fly or a foliot/verge for the timing function. If you disengage the foliot/verge then the fly goes fast enough to control the rotation of the drum. With the foliot in place, it controls the, very slow, rotation.

[FredWJensen]

Tom, That is a great. Thanks for the help.
I appreciate everyone's help here.
The later verge watches used a crude hairspring.
I guess that was to refine and control the motion of the balance/verge.

[Tom McIntyre]

With a hairspring it made sense to put a minute hand on the watch. With the cylinder escapement and later the duplex, it made sense to put a second hand on the watch.

Verge watches with seconds hands are kind of a nonsequitor. Center seconds verge watches are actually pretty scarce.

[mersus99]

One of the principals of the Towson Watch Company did a presentation at our local chapters' joint meeting last year on the restoration of the 1530 Philip Melanchthon Watch, which I believe was made by Henlein. I believe that he said that the fusee type movement did use cat gut instead of a chain.

An article describing this watch and its movement (verge with foliot balance) is on the web at

http://www.lutheranquarterly.com/Articles/2001/3-Autumn/lq153_01.249_272.pdf

[Don Dahlberg]

Thanks for the education guys. Now I see that there is an article in the NAWCC Bulletin December 2002 (p 736-744) on the "Philip Melanchtohon's Watch - Dated 1530".

I am always amazed how many articles in the Bulletin I miss, because I am not interested in the topic at the time. Later I discover these articles and say "How neat!"

Don

[FredWJensen]

Thanks for the great article mersus99!
It has great details.

[Boettgerie]

Hello !

I just want to let you know, that the English version of the Peter Henlein -Website is now online. Just the chapter "Ludwig Engelhardt" will follow in a few days.
Please have a look at www.peterhenlein.com.

For us there is now doubt that this watch is original !

Kindest regards

Heiko Mock
(webmaster@peterhenlein.com)

[Jerry Matthews]

Just to be clear in my mind, are you saying "there is no doubt" (kein Zweifel) or "there is now doubt" (jetzt Zweifel)?

Jerry

[Boettgerie]

Just to be clear in my mind, are you saying "there is no doubt" (kein Zweifel) or "there is now doubt" (jetzt Zweifel)?

Jerry

Sorry I wanted to say "there is no doubt". It was just a typing error.
So, there is NO doubt !

[Jerry Matthews]

Thank you for that. I am happy to learn that there is no doubt about the authenticity of this very beautiful piece of craftmanship.

[Noris]

Hallo -
I'm a new member
- I found (with google searching) on your interesting board my name:

Ludwig Engelhardt from Nürnberg (Nuremberg)
the hometown of Peter Henlein.

I have learned as a watch and clockmaker and I think I have all informations of Peter Henlein .... but sorry a very bad school English..

Nuremberg was also famous for sundials - pocket sundials - the special Nuremberg 16 hour time (from 1450 - 1806) - sand glasses - the Männleinlaufen etc.

If you have questions .. I hope to can help you

Look at the sun and the shadows are behind you
Ludwig

[Tom McIntyre]

It is my impression that the chain fusee was a 17th century innovation. It depended on the development of enough of an industry to support the specialized trade of chain making. That trade had its own tooling, jigs and fixtures and primarily employed women in the craft.

[Ansomnia]

Hallo -
...Nuremberg was also famous for sundials - pocket sundials - the special Nuremberg 16 hour time (from 1450 - 1806) - sand glasses - the Männleinlaufen etc.

If you have questions .. I hope to can help you

Look at the sun and the shadows are behind you
Ludwig



...and famous for (natural) trumpets, the kind where the trumpeter forms the different tones with his or her mouth and throat instead of with valves.

Amongst others, there was a famous Nürnberg trumpetmaker from the 17th Century called Hanns Hainlein. I read some history about Nürnberg and I understand it was an important trading town and had expertise and metal-working.

BTW, there is a good discussion of the characteristics of Peter Henlein's watch in "WATCHES" (1965) the important book by Cecil Clutton and George Daniels. In my 1979 edition they said Henlein's watch is spherical and called it a "gilt musk-apple" quoting a source called Dopplmayer who also described Henlein as a "locksmith artist who became famous when he (made) small watchworks in the form of musk-balls.

Not sure why they called it a musk-ball unless they alluded to musket-ball. But Bisam is German for muskrat. Apfel is apple in English. Ludwig, can you explain the meaning?

In any case, the watch from the Peter Henlein website seems to match the description given in the Clutton/Daniels book. It does appear to be authentic. Amazing!


Michael
typos

[Tom McIntyre]

A Musk Ball is similar to a Vinaigrette. It contains perfume and smelling salts of one variety or another and is used to overpower the stench of the street. Remember there was no plumbing of any kind when these watches were made and the streets smelled worse than the people. :o

[Ansomnia]

Thanks for the explanation Tom. I get it now. Come to think of it I have actually seen musk balls before - never knew what they were called. But they do look just like the Henlein spherical watch.


Michael

[Ansomnia]

I just noticed an interesting coincidence.

The text on the Peter Henlein watch website mentions "...this watch was his first portable watch, which he invented and made during his asylum from 1504 to 1508 in the Franciscan monastery."

When I said earlier that I had actually seen musk balls before I was referring to their use in Catholic masses; where the priest burns incense in the ball suspended from a chain by a ring attached to the top of the ball. They look exactly like the Henlein watch.

I wonder if Henlein's choice of watch case design had anything to do with being in a Franciscan monastery ???

UPDATE: My hunch is probably only a coincidence. I just read some of the other accounts of the musk ball watch at the Peter Henlein website. The author refers to it as a "pomander" which is a ball-like (or apple-like) container of sweet-smelling herbs and spices often hung around the neck as well as left on a table or in a closet; supposedly to ward off illness. The plague was actually raging at the time in Nürnberg. So pomanders would not have been exclusive to monasteries or churches.


Michael

[Noris]

Hallo Michael,

first an information of trumpet maker Hainlein
A Sebastian Hainlein signed (MCDLX = 1460) trumpet is in the Boston, USA, Museum of Fine Arts!

Now the Bisamapfel - Info of Peter Henlein (also called Hele or Henle):

In the night of the 7th September of the year 1504,
there was a scuffle in the streets of Nuremberg, in the course of which the locksmith Georg Glaser was killed. Suspected were three locksmiths, which were part of the affray, named Georg Heuss (he made the famous "Männleinlaufen",
Peter Henlein and Paul Teffler. Peter Henlein fled afterwards into the Franciscan mendicant convent and asked the brothers of the order for protection and sanctuary from the prosecution of the authorities.
In the forced quiet behind cloister walls and during the inner contemplation, the first thoughts may have arisen for making an especially small timekeeper, which ran in all circumstances and which you could loosely carry about the body.

"Bisamapfel", in old Nuremberg documents:
1524 am 11. Januar erhält Peter Henlein 15 fl. für einen "vergulten pysn Apffel für all Ding mit einem Oraiologium"
it means:
Henlein got 15 Gulden for a gold plated Bisam apple (it looks like a little apple) with a watch (or clock) inside.

Supposedly, a pomander, which he had seen and bought in the convent, inspired him so much that he wanted to build a clock into this little metal orb. In the 16th century, the pomanders or fases were widespread. They were small, orb-like capsules filled with different scents (musk, ambergris, cibet), which were carried by their owner - for example on a string or chain - and spread aromatic scents. Furthermore, they were thought to have healing or disease (especially the plague!) averting powers and protection against evil daemons.
As the plague raged in Nuremberg in the year 1505, it was surely more than logical for Henlein to use such a pomander as a casing for his first watch.

www.peterhenlein.com

ludwig (Nuremberg, Bavaria)

[Tom McIntyre]

I believe when the incense is burned in the device it is called a censer. The scent covers a much larger area, of course.

[Ansomnia]

Hallo Michael,

first an information of trumpet maker Hainlein
A Sebastian Hainlein signed (MCDLX = 1460) trumpet is in the Boston, USA, Museum of Fine Arts!
...
www.peterhenlein.com

ludwig (Nuremberg, Bavaria)






Ludwig, thank you for your interesting background on Henlein and pomanders.

I was in Nürnberg a few years ago and like many tourists, I stood on the Maxbrücke and took pictures of the Pegnitz river where the Weinstadl (wine stable) and Hangman's Tower apparently still stand today. I believe they would have been landmarks for the city in the 1500s but it is a little hard to make out in the watch engraving. The tower in the engraving also appears to be squared-sided while I believe the Hangman's Tower is rounded. The engraving does seem to show a river so that would reduce the possible locations.

Had I known about pomander watches at the time I would have looked up Henker Steg and made the walk onto the little island. :?| I guess the Weinstadl may have been used as an infirmary during the plague. It's a beautiful spot and I really enjoyed my visit to Nürnberg.

Thank you for the information on Sebastian Hainlein, he may have been a forefather of Hanns. Trumpets in the 15th Century would have been for fanfare or military signaling rather than serious music.


Michael

Here are 2 photos I took of the location - regret not having done a panorama but the Hangman's tower should be the tower on the left side of the photo on the right.

[Ansomnia]

I believe when the incense is burned in the device it is called a censer. The scent covers a much larger area, of course.


Tom, you are absolutely correct. Funny what one can learn on a horological forum! :D


Michael

[Noris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurible:
A thurible is a metal censer suspended from chains, in which incense is burned during worship services. It is used in the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, Old Catholic, and some Lutheran churches, as well as in Christian and non-Christian Gnostic Catholic Churches and in the practice of magick.[1][2] In Catholic, Episcopal, and Anglican churches, the altar server who carries the thurible is called the thurifer.
The workings of a thurible are quite simple. Burning charcoal is inside the metal censer. Incense, sometimes of many different varieties, is placed upon the charcoal. This may be done several times during the service as the incense burns quite quickly. Once the incense has been placed on the charcoal the thurible is then closed and used for censing.
The word "thurible" comes from the Old French thurible, which in turn is derived from the Latin term "thuribulum". The Latin word thuribulum has the root "thur", meaning incense. The Latin "thur"is an alteration of the Greek word "thuos", which is derived from the term "thein", meaning to sacrifice.

The Bisamapfel has mostly parts of fabric (??) in it soaked with scent aroma, it is hanging on the neck or belt. Henlein put his first watch in it, because trousers pockets have been in the middle age in Nuremberg not usualy.
Ludwig

[Bill V]

I put the prigional web pag you gave into google and it translated it into English. The images only seem to work in the German versiom, however.
Thanks again, it is a great site.

I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but there is a British flag above the menu in the website, and if you click on it, it changes from german to English.
Very interesting website.

Bill V

[Noris]

Hallo Michel
thank you for the nice pictures of Nuremberg

http://www.baukunst-nuernberg.de/epoche.php?epoche=Gotik&objekt=Stadtbefestigung
Here you can see the Wasserturm (watertower) and Henkerturm (Hangman tower) - he lives on a little island in our Pegnitz River, because he was not allowed to live in the town because he made a dishonorable job.

When you came next time to Nuremberg - my wife or my doughter are officiell City guides - we can show you all interesting parts of Nuremberg.
Ludwig

[Ansomnia]

Hello Ludwig,


thank you for the interesting background on the hangman's tower and the web link. You're right about the square-sided hangman's tower.

I was not a clock-nut when I visited Nürnberg in 2001 but I have since become fascinated by old clocks and old watches. I think it has something to do with my admiration for the craftsmanship and dedication. It is the same with the music and musical instruments from the same periods.

Nürnberg was a wonderful place to visit and it is very kind of you to offer to show me around on my next trip. I only stayed 4 days last time and but on my next visit I will know better - horological places of interest will be added to my list. I will bookmark your website for when I plan my next visit.


Michael