Illinois grade 539 ... 19 jewel

[Fred Hansen]

An interesting watch here, Illinois serial #3869230 ...

[Fred Hansen]

If this watch is looked up in Russ Snyder's Illinois database, this serial number shows as being the last watch made in the last run of grade 539 movements at serials 3869201-3869230.

This is where it gets strange ... the Illinois grade 539 is known as a 21 jewel, 5 position, bridge model movement signed "Illini Extra". But this watch is quite different being a 19 jewel, 3/4 plate, 5 position movement with no Illini marking.

Any thoughts or comments on the watch would be appreciated, and I would be especially interested to here the details of any other similar movements that have been seen or of any other watches in this 3869201-3869230 serial number range.

Fred

[Jim Carroll]

Fred,
That's a very strange model, if you look at Meggers serial numbers for that run, 19 jewels is crossed out and replaced with 21 Jewels. What a great find, If the movement is a size 13 it could be classed as a 2nd model.


Jim carroll

[Tom McIntyre]

Fred,

This grade 437 is another of the mis-corrections in Meggers' records. It was the first "Illini" I bought based on the note in the book. I asked Bill about it after I bought it and he said things were pretty hectic at the time the final corrections were being made prior to publication. I think Bill would have liked a bit more time to clean things up but Roy had the publication all set up to go, so go it did.
http://www.awco.org/SmallWonders/IlliniRef/437Mvt.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

Jim - I will measure the dial plate when I get a chance and post back here with the details.

Tom - Interesting watch! I see the run your watch is from is noted as split production in Russ's database and that there is an image captured of an Illini from that serial range.

Fred

[Jerry Treiman]

To me Fred's watch bears some characteristics of the ExtraThin 2nd model (Illini) such as the balance cock and regulator, adjustment marking and serial number location, but otherwise I would surmise that this run is the first of the 3rd model that Jim Carroll has been documenting. There have been no Illini grade 539 examples reported from this last run of 30 numbers and I suspect that is an error - they are probably like this one instead. It may be the precursor to the 19j ExtraThin (3rd model) A.Lincoln. Looking at the production data this movement precedes the aluminum-plate 3rd model grade 525 by only 20 numbers and the first 2nd model grade 528 by 70 numbers. Some experimentation was definitely going on at Illinois at this time.

[Jerry Treiman]

Regarding Tom's grade 437 - this is from a run of 400 of that model (3,650,201-600). It was preceded by 100 of the grade 539 Illini Extra (the photos Russ shows). I sent Russ a correction to this a while ago so either you have an older database or he hasn't gotten to the correction yet.

[Jim Carroll]

Jerry,
If the movement is a size 12 I believe it is a prototype for the 19 jewel grade 527 A Lincoln,
Just as the aluminium size 12 movement 3869250-3869300 was the original grade 525 Marquis/ Marquis Autocrat. Model.

Jim Carroll

[Fred Hansen]

I received an excellent email on this watch yesterday which also suggested the similarities of it to the grade 527.

Do any of the grade 527 have friction set jewels or the simple regulator, or are any marked with the same factory marking as this watch?

Fred

[rschussel]

Fred
I had sent a note to yesterday as I could not log on to the new site.
Your movement looks like the 12size 19j grade 527 A Linclon. The first 19j Abe Lincoln had a serial number of 4018501 . Whether your movement is a prototype or part of a short run it is an interesting curiousity.

Bob

[Fred Hansen]

Thank you Bob, I appreciate the info and am glad to see the board working for you now.

Fred

[Jim Carroll]

Fred,
The first six runs of the A Lincoln 527 grade have burnished set Jewels on the train bridge, all of the runs have a screwed down centre wheel jewel and have a patent regulator. All the runs have Abe Lincoln on the train bridge
http://www.geocities.com/jas_carroll/alincoln.html

Jim Carroll

[bernie levine]

Fred,

This grade 437 is another of the mis-corrections in Meggers' records. It was the first "Illini" I bought based on the note in the book. I asked Bill about it after I bought it and he said things were pretty hectic at the time the final corrections were being made prior to publication. I think Bill would have liked a bit more time to clean things up but Roy had the publication all set up to go, so go it did.
http://www.awco.org/SmallWonders/IlliniRef/437Mvt.jpg

I have a grade 19 jewel Ser #3650347 marked exactly like yours.
so I should mark my notes 539 and not 437 according to Meggers
corrected note?

Thanks,
bernie levine

[Jerry Treiman]

Bernie - both Tom's and yours are grade 437.

[bernie levine]

Bernie - both Tom's and yours are grade 437.

Thanks Jerry,
After looking at all 437 and 539 sections illustrations etc Illinios in Vol 2
and your post I believe my 19J is a grade 437.

bernie levine

[Jerry Treiman]

To help clarify the identification of the different Illinois 12 or 13-size extra-thin models I have prepared images for comparison. This first image shows the four grades made in the 12-size extra-thin, 1st model. These were factory-cased, usually in fine gold cases, often with enamel inlay. Many of these did not have the Illinois name on the dial and I have yet to find any advertising for this model. Examples and information to aid my research are welcome. As many of these are losing their gold cases recently it is important to document what we can.

[Jerry Treiman]

The extra-thin 12-size, 2nd model (grade 528 ) was a late entry, derived and upgraded from the 13-size extra-thin, 1st model (grades 538 & 539). All are marked Illini and use the DeLong 5-tooth click. Although Illinois reports the grade 528 as 12-size, actual measurement seems to show some variation in size. The 12-size 2nd model can most readily be differentiated from the 13-size Illini by the use of a pallet cock rather than a pallet bridge. It also has a gold gear train and the back plate is smaller in diameter than the 13-size (note how close the detent screw is to the edge of the plate). None of the 1st model and most of the Illini have simple regulators.

[Jerry Treiman]

The 12-size extra-thin 3rd model is the one that started this thread, with the unusual early version posted by Fred. Note how some of the markings and the balance cock are the same as the Illini. For this illustration I have only depicted the earlier 3rd models that have burnished jewels and a pallet cock. I have not shown the later variant with pallet bridge and set jewels. [a small correction to my photo credits, below -- the image in the upper left is, of course, courtesy of Fred Hansen]

[Jim Carroll]

Fred ,
Your new find makes a nice set with my other model 3 movements, if you ever want to move it on be sure to get in touch. :thumb:

Jim Carroll

[Fred Hansen]

The response here has been tremendous and I want to give a huge thanks to all who have posted! I had not studied these thin model watches very closely previously, but this find and the wonderful information that has been shared here has really expanded my interest.

Something else I'd like to share ... with a gap of only 20 serial numbers between the watch at the start of this thread and the start of the aluminum grade 525 run, I began to wonder what movements were produced in that small space of 20 serial numbers in between?

After looking in Russ's database it turns out that there are actually two runs of 10 watches in this small serial span, one of these runs contains a watch I know very well while the other run is of a watch I have no knowledge of.

3869231-240 ... This is the serial number range I already was familiar with, a run of 16 size Bunn Special. This run of 10 watches is uniquely small among the 16 size Bunn Specials, and the only watch I've seen from it is a 23 jewel model 11 with bright-spotted damaskeen pattern. This watch is the only example of the bright-spotted pattern on a model 11 Bunn Special I have ever seen, and I have attached a photo of #3869237 at the end of this post.

3869241-250 ... This is the run I was not familiar with, and when I looked it up in Russ's database it returned as a 17 jewel, 12 size, model 3, grade 935. But apparently this was the only run made of this grade, and it is listed as "unknown" in the description so I suspect this means none have been seen. Has anyone ever come across a grade 935?

From this thread it now seems likely to me that this full span of 100 serial numbers between 3869201 to 3869300 was (as Jerry nicely stated above) a period of "experimentation" that involved the production of some unusual and short-lived watches.

Fred

[bernie levine]

To help clarify the identification of the different Illinois 12 or 13-size extra-thin models I have prepared images for comparison. This first image shows the four grades made in the 12-size extra-thin, 1st model. These were factory-cased, usually in fine gold cases, often with enamel inlay. Many of these did not have the Illinois name on the dial and I have yet to find any advertising for this model. Examples and information to aid my research are welcome. As many of these are losing their gold cases recently it is important to document what we can.

Thanks again for showing 12 or 13 extra thin models. I have an example of gr 435 #3482018 17j that looks exactly like your illustration including
the brass mainspring whole bearing and the brass balance cap jewel.
I wonder how many of these grade 435 have appeared?

Thanks for showing,
bernie

[bernie levine]

To help clarify the identification of the different Illinois 12 or 13-size extra-thin models I have prepared images for comparison. This first image shows the four grades made in the 12-size extra-thin, 1st model. These were factory-cased, usually in fine gold cases, often with enamel inlay. Many of these did not have the Illinois name on the dial and I have yet to find any advertising for this model. Examples and information to aid my research are welcome. As many of these are losing their gold cases recently it is important to document what we can.

[bernie levine]

To help clarify the identification of the different Illinois 12 or 13-size extra-thin models I have prepared images for comparison. This first image shows the four grades made in the 12-size extra-thin, 1st model. These were factory-cased, usually in fine gold cases, often with enamel inlay. Many of these did not have the Illinois name on the dial and I have yet to find any advertising for this model. Examples and information to aid my research are welcome. As many of these are losing their gold cases recently it is important to document what we can.

[bernie levine]

To help clarify the identification of the different Illinois 12 or 13-size extra-thin models I have prepared images for comparison. This first image shows the four grades made in the 12-size extra-thin, 1st model. These were factory-cased, usually in fine gold cases, often with enamel inlay. Many of these did not have the Illinois name on the dial and I have yet to find any advertising for this model. Examples and information to aid my research are welcome. As many of these are losing their gold cases recently it is important to document what we can.



Jerry per your request , My grade 435 #3482018 :
Dial: Metal Breguest black arabic numerials
Case marked with a crown logo, below emperor, basemetal coated
with a flat silver plating. Style similar to the Bunn Special case 173.
No other extra case screw marks. snap on front bezel and backcase.
I have no way of knowing whether the watch was recased.

[Russ Snyder]

With assistance from Jeff Hamilton (and a heads-up from Fred), I am finally able to post to the new message board.

As I indicated privately to Fred yesterday, I am indebted to Jerry T. and Jim C. for virtually all of the information on these size 12 & 13 movements that appears in my Illinois database. The side-by-side photos are so very helpful for both the novice and the seasoned collector.

With respect to the production run described as Grade 935 "unknown", I have a hunch this is another typo. Unfortunately, I no longer have in my possession a copy of the factory records which includes this run, so I can't check the handwritting against my suspicions. However, having seen this happen with other Grades, my guess is that this run was a Grade 539 (with the numbers simply transposed.) In two other instances I have seen the same typo originally point to a "unique" Grade, only to finally see a watch from that run and discover the transposed digits.

If this assumption is correct, then we have a series of production runs that look like this:

3,869,201 - 230 = Grade 539, 19J (new one found by Fred)
3,869,231 - 240 = Grade Bunn Special, 23J (unique version, single run)
3,869,241 - 250 = Grade 539, possibly 17 jewels
3,869,251 - 300 = Grade 525, 17J, Aluminum "Marquis" (only aluminum)

Seen as a group these clearly suggest some sort of innovative period at the company. Although a Grade "935" would not contradict such an assumption, I think it seems more logical to assume another version of Grade 539 for the run of ten immediately before the aluminum watches.

Russ

[rschussel]

Bernie
My guess is that your 435 is recased.

I own the 435 that is in Jerry Treimans picture. It is in a 14kt case with a dust cover. The dial and case do not idenify the maker or jeweler.

My experience with the 437s thru 439s is that they originally were cased in solid gold cases. Many of the cases and dials were of high quality.

Bob Schussel

[Jim Carroll]

Bob,
I have a 437 and a 438 both in Wandsworth Aristocrat gold filled cases, I believe the cases are original to the watches.

Jim Carroll

[rschussel]

Jim

I will never be able to prove it but I wonder whether the watches may have been recased or were sold at a later date and put in gold filled cases so that they could be sold at a cheaper price, .

While little is known about grades 435 thru 439 I suspect they were sold as upscale watches--nice dials and nice gold cases.In some instances the cases had fancy enamelling.

My extra thin 1st models came in two types of cases--Wadsworth and unmarked ( just gold content and a 4 digit serial number). While one of my Wadsworth cases is marked Aristocrat the other is just marked Wadsworth.

Bob Schussel

[rschussel]

Bernie
To the best of my knowledge your grade 435 is only the second one to be reported.

According to Russ Synders database only 310 were produced.As Meggars had never seen a 435 I suspect relatively few have survived.

My 435 has a plain dial and 14kt case with a 4 digit serial number.In fact the case has numerous dings as it was not particularily heavy.

Bob schussel

[Jerry Treiman]

I have been keeping track of all known examples of the extra-thin 1st model and am keeping this database up-to-date as more examples appear. It is also becoming a sad reminder that many of these have had their cases scrapped.

Bernie's 435 is one of three currently known and Bob's is the only example believed to have its original case (no 1st models are believed to have been cased in base metal). However, quite a few of the late production appeared in Wadsworth Aristocrat case, both solid gold and gold-filled. Enough have shown up in gold-filled that I believe these to be original.

[I am also tracking the surviving Illini models and plan to post that database, too]

[bernie levine]

I have a Ill 12 or 13 size grade 528 21 j ON2P #3869958.

Movement:
Marked 21 J Illini five position adjusted.
Movement like illustration # 4 0n pg 210 In Ill vol2 Meggers and Ehrhardt
book.
Case white gold:
Inner back lid inside is marked guaranteed 14k 585 fine . The K.W.C. Co.
the inner lid out side is marked ILLINIOS WATCH CO. SPRINGFIELD in
a wide circle. The outer back lid and front bezel are marked with a black
enameled "grecian" design. The case is designed like the 16 size Bunn
Special model 173.

I would appreciate knowing about the 528 grades.
Thanks ,
Bernie Levine

[Jerry Treiman]

The grade 528 "Illini" is designated by Illinois as their 12-size extra-thin, 2nd model. It was a slightly smaller and more highly finished version of the 13-size Illini and superceded that model. Current research seems to indicate that the 528 was produced shortly before the Illinois Watch Co. was purchased by Hamilton, and most came in 14K white gold cases. The case was designated as the "Dictator" style and many had enamel borders. 800 of the grade 528 movements were reworked by Hamilton into their new grade 400 movement and were cased and sold as Hamilton's Tycoon series.

[Dr. Jon]

On Jerry's 528, 538 and 539 pictures, I see that the top of the mainspring barrel has gold or brass color instead of nickel. Was that how they left the factory or did the nickel plating come off? I have seen this coloration on a lot of 12 size Illinois bridge movements.

[Jerry Treiman]

The barrels came both nickel-plated and brass. All of the gr.528 and gr.539 that I have photos of have brass barrels. Most of the early 538s have nickel-plated barrels, with brass becoming more common in the later production.