Burlington Special

[wabtczn]

nullHello,
I'm trying to get more information from the pocket watch that I have. It has been passed down generations, and there is not much of a story with it....
I know that it is a Burlington Special - it says so on the watch face :)
The number listed in the watch is 2095339, and it says "Adjusted to temperature and positions". The case has the number 1340100 engraved, along with several other light etching of different numbers, and the "The Burlington Watch Co. Guarantees this case to be made of.... to wear for 25 years"

Can anywone tell me what time frame this might have been from? I have tried to research, and have found very similar pieces, but have not found any with the face like the one that I have. It has gold diamonds and gold leaves between the numbers, the hands are very ornate and under the Burlington Special ther is a gold design with what looks like rubies on either end.

If anyone out there has any infomation, it would be so very helpful!!!
Thanks so much,
Sabrina

[Jerry Matthews]

I am sure users of this board in the US willl have more information than I. But I can tell you that Burlington Special watches were mainly made by the Illinois Watch Company and were sold by mail order. The movement serial number you quoted would date the watch to about 1908.

A close-up photo of the watch and movement would be helpful in giving futher information.

Jerry

[wabtczn]

Jerry,
Thanks for the info.. here are some quick pics I took.
Hopefully they will be helpfull.

[Jerry Matthews]

Nice photos. The 3-finger bridge of the movement does look to me like it was made by Illinois, but I defer to those more-learned board users in the US.

You said it was passed down in the family through the generations. Do you know who it belonged to originally? The highly-ornamented dial looks like a lady's watch. What is the diameter of the watch- not including the bow and stem? If it around 1 1/4 inches it is probably a lady's watch; if closer to 1 3/4--2 inches it would be a man's.

It looks to be in very good condition. If the watch were mine I would certainly have it serviced, cleaned and oiled, and maintain it well for future generations.

Good luck with it.

Jerry

[ggordon]

Very nice watch.

It was definitely made by Illinois and it is a 16 size, hunter style, Getty movement. You can tell by the single winding wheel and the crescent shaped click.

One thing about hunter cases that you want to be careful of is that when you close the front cover of the case to be sure and push down on the crown while closing instead of snapping the cover shut. This will keep the soft metal lip on the inner part of the cover from wearing out to where the cover won't stay latched.

I second Jerry's comment about getting it serviced by a COMPETENT watchmaker and enjoy it for years to come.

Greg

[wabtczn]

I think that it belonged to a man.. there are engraved initials on the front that I think belonged to a grandfather 5 generations up. This individual was in PA in 1887 - then IN in 1889. On the back of the watch was a family crest or coat of arms, does anyone know if this design would have been custom made?

If I measure the size of the watch with the case closed (mind you I'm not sure what the bow and stem, but I'm guessing that is the thing that opens and winds :D ) it is right at 2 inches from one side to the other.

The watch is running, but the time is incorrect.. anyone know how to set it?!?

[ggordon]

Very nice watch.

It was definitely made by Illinois and it is a 16 size, hunter style, Getty movement. You can tell by the single winding wheel and the crescent shaped click.

One thing about hunter cases that you want to be careful of is that when you close the front cover of the case to be sure and push down on the crown while closing instead of snapping the cover shut. This will keep the soft metal lip on the inner part of the cover from wearing out to where the cover won't stay latched.

It is a lever-set watch. To set the time, look at the face of the watch around the outside of the bezel between the 4 and 5 o'clock positions you will see a sort of hook shaped object barely sticking out. Take your fingernail and pull on it till it comes all the way out. This is the setting lever. While the lever is pulled out, turn the crown to set the time. When you get the time set, push the setting lever back in.

I second Jerry's comment about getting it serviced by a COMPETENT watchmaker and enjoy it for years to come.

Greg

[wabtczn]

Any suggestions on a watchmaker near central Indiana.. I'd love to have it cleaned, but there is so much FAMILY Value in the watch, my husband is a bit of a fanatic on who handles it.. (it was handed down through his family, passed on to the son after the father dies)

[Jerry Matthews]

At 2 inches, it is most certainly a man's watch.

You asked about the crest or coat of arms on the back. It is quite normal for watches of that period to have such a decoration on the back, called an escutcheon. Yours might have been custom made---can't say without seeing a picture---but it is more likely to have been a stock design.

Your husband is right to be a bit of a fanatic about it, and I hope those good people at the NAWCC can point you to a competent watchmaker near where you live.

Jerry

[Fred Hansen]

Wow! Nice dial!!!

This is the first double-sunk 16 size colored fancy Burlington dial I have ever seen. I have an Illinois Watch Co. marked fancy dial in my collection that is very similar in color and style ...

http://www.interstatetime.com/WatchOTM/images/Grade179/Gr179HansenDial-2.jpg

Fred

[Larry Seikel]

Hello Sabrina,
Russ Snyder's Illinois database CD shows 2095339 to be the following:
Size...16
Jewels...19
Model...4
Lever set
Grade...185
Made in 1908
Total made...23,500 over 35 runs, between 1908 and 1912. 2095339 was in the 2nd run of movements (there were 1,000 movements in that run).

Best Regards,
Larry Seikel

[Fred Hansen]

As posted above this would be a 16 size man's watch by the Illinois Watch Co. produced in about 1908 and marked specially for Burlington. If you run a search on this message board with the term "Burlington" I expect you can find a good background on this firm and their mail order products.

The movement of your watch is a fairly common grade 185 ... according to Russ Snyder's Illinois Watch Co. database one of 23500 in this grade produced between 1908 and 1912, and with the majority of these being private-label marked for Burlington like your watch.

But I believe the dial of your watch is quite scarce, and none of the many hundreds of 16 size Burlington movements I'd previously seen has had this fancy dial.

Fred

[Kent]

Hi Sabrina:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

The Burlington Watch Co., of Chicago, IL, was a mail-order sales operation. Almost all of the watches were made by the Illinois Watch Co. and privately-labeled for Burlington. Since the vast majority of Burlington watches were made by the Illinois Watch Co., information about them is contained in "American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide," William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com), Kansas City, MO, 1985. In seeking information about a watch, it is the serial number on the movement (the "works") that is important.

In addition to printed references, and Russell W Snyder's Illinois Data Base CD, which may be obtained by an email to Jon Hanson at jonontime@aol.com, there are Oldwatch.com's Illinois Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/Illinoisdate.html) and the PocketWatchSite's Illinois Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/illinoisserials.html) which are an online means for determining the very approximate production date of Illinois pocket watches. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Illinois, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more.

Others have already reported the information from the above sources.

Burlington seems to have started up around 1908-1910 and lasted until about 1923-1924, possibly later. For about the first ten years, Burlington sold mostly 19-jewel watches, a lot of which were marketed as the "Burlington Special." The 1912 ad at the first link shows the classic open-face “Burlington Special” while the hunting-case model is shown in the second link:
elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1912/m_05_burlington_special.html

elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1911/m_12_burlington_special_hc.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Its difficult to know whether to call these watches Burlington Special's or just plain Burlington's. Burlington marketed their 19-jewel watch as the Burlington Special watch, but the only place that the "Burlington Special" marking appeared was on the dial. Thus the question arises, is a "Burlington Special" fitted with a different dial still a "Burlington Special"?

There were several models of 16-size "Burlington Special" made by the Illinois Watch Co.:
21-Jewel Model 5 Sangamo Grade Movement (http://www.interstatetime.com/Posts/images/BurlingtonSangMvt.jpg) & Its Dial (http://www.interstatetime.com/Posts/images/BurlingtonSangDial.jpg), courtesy of John Cote & his Interstatetime Co., which, being adjusted to temperature and 6 positions, was widely accepted for railroad service.
19-Jewel Model 5 (http://photos16.flickr.com/23318916_392f0a148e_o.jpg)
19-Jewel Model 9 (http://photos17.flickr.com/23318917_d18092b47e_o.jpg). Please note that the movement in the Model 9's picture is missing its regulator whipspring with its associated mounting and adjusting screws.

Then, in February 1917, Burlington dropped the 19-jewel watches and introduced a complete line of Burlington 21-Jewel Watches (http://photos19.flickr.com/23318918_8ea7c4fce3_o.jpg), adjusted to temperature and positions (the number of which was unspecified).

Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Good luck,

[JohnL]

Gorgeous Burlington Dial Sabrina!:o

First colored Illinois dial specifically marked Burlington Special, that i've seen anywhere.....

Thanks for posting pictures of it.


Great Watch!

[wabtczn]

Wow!!
Thank you to everyone that replied.. you all had great information for me. :clap:
I now have a lot more research to do with the infomraitont hat you provided, but at least I know that I am heading in the right direction. :thumb:

Thanks again !!
Sabrina

[wabtczn]

Fred, I found this picture when I was researching.. I thought too how similar they looked !! I couldn't believe how close they were.. Thanks for your input !!

[wabtczn]

I'm unable to take a picture escutcheon on the back cover of the watch. Is there anywhere that has what the stock options might have been for the time...
The coat of arms is a quarter divided shield with crowned rampant lions on either side of the shield - heads facing away from the shield. There is an eagle atop the shield with full open arms. Two quadrants of the shield have rampant lions, the other quadrants have line designs that look like 2-3 chevrons touching. Trying to find something that looks like this.. want to re-create it if it was special order..

Thanks !
Sabrina

[Jerry Matthews]

Sabrina - Wow, that is quite a coat of arms! Definitely not what we would call a "bog standard" stock item. Wish you could give us a photo of it.

Attached is a photo of a rather standard design that you will find on many 19th--early 20th century watch cases. This one is from an English watch, but I have seen many similar ones on American cases.

But American case makers offered far more options than the English, and I believe you could get almost any design you wanted. I believe there were catalogues of case styles and designs that the customer could choose. For example, here is a photo of the rear cover of an Illinois watch about the same age as yours.

I guess the short answer to your question is I don't know whether the coat of arms on your watch was a special order or something from a catalogue. But I can say it is certainly not common.

Jerry

[Jerry Matthews]

The photos came out in the wrong order. The first watch I mentioned (the English watch) is the second photo. I am still learning my way with the new message board format.

[wabtczn]

Jerry,
I can't thank you enough for the information that you have provided!! I'm so very excited to keep researching the history of this watch !!
I love new projects.
Sabrina

[wabtczn]

The pictures that I have found of what seems to be the standard designs do not even compare to the watch that I have. The designs on the watch I have are very light, and have worn over time. The case description reads that it is solid gold, would this allow for less options?.. maybe making this special order.
Also, the designs that I'm seeing on the message board seem to be 'RAISED' designs, where the designs on my watch are very distinctly 'ENGRAVED'.... I'm trying to have a copy of this coat of arms re-created. I'll be playing with the camera next week, and I'll try to post new pictures.
Thanks again to everyone for the wonderful information you have given me, I'm so excited, I feel like I have a real treasure in my hands!!

[Don Dahlberg]

Sabrina,

I don't think anyone has addressed the problem of finding a good watchmaker in Indiana. If you go to the local chapter of NAWCC, they might be able to recommend someone. Go to http://www.nawcc.org/headquarters/chapters/chap-US.htm#Indiana and contact one of the officers.

No matter who recommends a watchmaker, you need to quiz the person on vintage watches. First I would ask about the watch. Who made it and the grade and so on. Now you know the answers to these quesions, does he? It is OK if they look some things up in books or internet. The fact is that they know something about vintage watches and know where to look for information.

Second I would as how he/she overhauls a watch. Some clean a watch by removing the movement from the case, removing the dial and "cleaning" in an ultrasonic cleaner with a combination cleaner oiling solution. This does not allow them to inspect the parts for damage and spreads oil in place it should not be.

A proper overhaul involves taking the watch down to all moving parts, about 50 pieces. Cleaning the watch in a mechanical or ultasonic cleaner with a watch cleaning solution, followed by three rinses. The parts are dried, and inspected. Damaged parts are repaired or replaced. The watch is reassembled and oiled properly. The watch is then adjusted appropriate to the grade. Finally the watch is tested for several days including running the watch in several positons. A good watchmaker will stand by his/her work for up to a year. It costs money to do all this work, because it take several hours. In my part of the country, they charge from $80 and up, depending on how much is wrong with the watch. There is always something wrong with a watch that has not been serviced by a good watchmaker in the last few years.

If you do not plan to have it serviced right away, you are doing no harm as long as you do not run the watch.

One last point is that you have noticed the reaction to your dial. The watch is nice, but the dial is very special. It is also very fragile. It is glass on a copper back. Copper expands in heat, the glass does not. Do not let the watch sit in direct sunlight or experience large and fast changes in temperature. We are not allowed to talk about dollar value, but most of the value of your watch is that dial.

Don

[Jerry Matthews]

null"The Burlington Watch Co. Guarantees this case to be made of.... to wear for 25 years"

[Jerry Matthews]

Hello again Sabrina

Two things: First, the case is not solid gold. The quote above from your first message means that it is a gold filled case; i.e., two micro-thin layers of gold over a base metal core. The "25 year guarantee" means that it was a slightly thicker layer of gold (many were guaranteed for fewer than 25 years) but in any event case makers were forced to stop giving that kind of guarantee a few years after your watch case was made.

Second, from what you say it seems very likely that the coat of arms you describe was engraved specially for one of your ancestors. Any nobility in your family? I do hope you can get a clear photo or drawing of it. If you can get a good reproduction you might submit it to the College of Arms at this address

http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Enquiries.htm

to see if they can give you any further information about its origin. I have to warn you though, that they are a bit snooty there. Still, worth a try.

Good luck.