Hi, Ive recently come across a pocket watch and would love to obtain any info possible. I did run a s/n search at elginwatches.org which provided me a wealth of info, now I'm hoping to get that info explained more clearly. The pocket watch that I have as Illinois on the face, roman numerals, the minute hand has a cresent moon shape sn/ is 2775266, which dates it from 1886 to 1894. Total manufactured appears to be 16000 during 15 runs. The grade is 33, the size 18s, 17j, code hfn2l. Open the back of the cover, exposing the wonderful mechanism, the words Illinois Watch Case Co, Eglin, Tivoli, gold filled 14k, guaranteed, s/n on case is 3845355. From what I can tell, it's a beautiful timepiece, even the glass is pristine. What does the info found mean to a collector? Thanks for any help that I can obtain.
Hi None:
Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!
The serial number lookup at the Elgin website only applies to those watches made by the Elgin National Watch Co. Perhaps you might have been confused by a century old trick of the Illinois Watch Case Co. in trying to give the impression that they were associated with the Elgin National Watch Co. (more below).
The Illinois Watch Company was founded in 1870 as the Springfield Watch Co. of Springfield, IL. It turned out about five million watches before being sold to the Hamilton Watch Co. of Lancaster, PA, in 1928. An interesting Historical Account of the Illinois Watch Co. (http://k_singer.home.comcast.net/illinois_watch_co.htm) is available, re-typed from the pages posted on Greg Frauenhoff's Website, as is an article on Jacob Bunn (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/celebrated.html), a president of the Illinois Watch Co., and son of one of the firm's founders. Brief descriptions and list prices of earlier Illinois movements may be seen online in a 530 Kb scan of an 1887 Catalog (http://static.flickr.com/27/43570061_f24bcaeb4e_b.jpg).
Hamilton continued production in Springfield for several years and then moved operations to the Hamilton plant in Lancaster. Illinois watches continued to be produced as different designs from Hamilton watches until 1949 when the name was retired.
In seeking information about a watch, it is the serial number on the movement (the "works") that is important.
Information about Illinois watches may be found in "American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide," William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com), Kansas City, MO, 1985 (may be still in print), and in Russell W Snyder's Illinois Data Base CD (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/4316035461/m/2401056421/r/8541060521#8541060521). Then, there are Oldwatch.com's Illinois Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/Illinoisdate.html) and the PocketWatchSite's Illinois Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/illinoisserials.html) which are an online means for determining the approximate production date of Illinois pocket watches. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Illinois, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more.
Looking up Illinois Watch Co. movement serial number 2775266 in the above references, it can be seen to be a 12-size, 17-jewel, grade No. 404, built in about 1915. A picture and catalog description of this modest movement, and where it fit in Illinois' line of 12-size watches, can be seen on page S5 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.
Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.
Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.
Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.
A short history of American watch cases, within the online article "Decorative Aspects of American Horology," by Philip Poniz, can be viewed on The Antiquorum Magazine (http://www.antiquorum.com/vox/june_2002/poniz/poniz.htm) website.
The Illinois Watch Case Co., of Elgin, Illinois, (formerly the Elgin Giant Watch Case Co.) carefully named their cases "Elgin" to give the impression that the watch case company was associated with the well-known Elgin National Watch Co. This 1895 Elgin Watch Case Ad (http://photos11.flickr.com/16931454_70ba7c9b7c_o.jpg) serves as an example. There was no association and the watch company eventually brought suit against the case company to prevent them from using the "Elgin" name. This was Decided in the Favor of the Watch Company in the Lower Courts in 1898 (http://static.flickr.com/10/13721240_d201f5dccd_o.jpg), but it was overturned in the Supreme Court. The citation for that case is Elgin Nat. Watch Co. v. Illinois Watch Case Co., 179 U.S. 665 (1901), as reported by John F. in a post on July 11, 2002. There may also be some confusion as to whether there was an association between the Illinois Watch Case Co. and the Illinois Watch Co. There wasn't. Despite the questionable use of the name "Elgin," the Illinois Watch Case Co. was a reputable company and it continued to make cases at least as late as the 1940's. Some of its later cases are labeled "Elgin Giant Watch Case Co."
The “Tivoli” grade of case is a 14K gold-filled case. A large proportion of movements are housed in gold-filled cases. These cases are made of a sheet of inexpensive, "composition" metal (brass), sandwiched between two thinner sheets of gold by applying heat and pressure. This produces a much heavier layer of gold than electro-plating. One process of doing this is defined by the term, "rolled gold-plate" (which is generally considered to use a thinner gold sheet, see a old ref ::Discussion On The Topic). The gold sheet that becomes the inside of the case is thinner than the gold sheet that becomes the outside of the case. Frequently, the purity of the gold used in the sheets, expressed in karats, is stamped inside the back of the case. Some case companies indicated the thickness of the outer layer of gold by using different trademarks for different thicknesses. Before federal regulations outlawed the practice, some case companies indicated the thickness of the outer layer by the number of years for which the case was warranted. Some watch case companies guaranteed their cases to wear permanently, the case would be replaced if it ever wore through to the brass. Examples of these are the:
Crescent Extra (http://photos14.flickr.com/16861337_9e0ca33a48_o.jpg) grade,
Fahys Permanent (http://photos13.flickr.com/19807186_331580a49c_o.jpg) grade, and
Illinois (Watch Case Co.) Elgin Pride (http://photos16.flickr.com/19807185_3b823d0f73_o.jpg) grade.
Not all case companies were forthright about marking the cases or honoring the warranty (which is what gave rise to the federal regulations). Frequently, the color of the gold (imparted by the metal with which the gold is alloyed) is expressed in conjunction with the term, "gold-filled." Thus it is not uncommon to see terms such as "yellow gold-filled," "white gold-filled," "green gold-filled," and so forth, used in case descriptions.
Good luck,
Kent,
Thanks for the great info. It could have prevented a potentially embarassing situation in the future by passing on incorrect info, albeit innocently. Thanks again!!!
Ray
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