992B IN ORIGINAL BOXES- MATCHING NUMBERS

[ShawnM]

I Found this auction on Ebay and was wondering if you guys thought this was legit!! I'm thinking about bidding on it but wanted your expert opinions first!!

thanks!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1705073127

[ShawnM]

I Found this auction on Ebay and was wondering if you guys thought this was legit!! I'm thinking about bidding on it but wanted your expert opinions first!!

thanks!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1705073127

[ShawnM]

very interesting!! I checked his feedabck and found this auction!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1690254435

[Barry G]

Well, it looks like he purchased it on eBay, replaced the crystal, and is now reselling it in the hopes of turning a profit. Personally, I don't care if a glass crystal is "original" or not as long as it is in good condition -- after all, who's to say whether the broken one was original in the first place?

Of course, seeing the amount he originally paid for the watch probably gives you an idea of the bare minimum his reserve might be in this auction.

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[ShawnM]

I noticed the dials have been switched as well, and he is selling it as an all origanal watch which it is not!!

THE MODEL NO.16 IS THE HAMILTON CASE. THE DIAL 121 IS THE ORIGINAL SINGLE SUNK PORCELAIN DIAL WITH RED FIVE MINUTE MARKERS, BOLD BLACK ARABIC MARKERS. MINT CONDITION GUN BLUED POINTERS. THE DIAL HAS A CLEAN HAIRLINE FROM THE 20 SECONDS MARKER OUT TO THE 23 MINUTE MARKER AND ONE UNDER THE 4 MARKER. REQUIRES STONG MAGNIFICATION TO BE SEEN.WOULD SOAK OUT EASY. ON THE EXTREME OUTER EDGE OF THE DIAL,BY THE 49 MIN. MARKER AND MORE UNDER THE DIAL IS A CHIP. SO SMALL YOU WILL BE UNABLE TO SEE IT IN THE PICTURE.THOUGH IT IS INSIGNIFICANT IT MUST BE MENTIONED.INTEGRITY RULES THE WATCH COMES WITH AN ABSOLUTELY MINT CONDITION, THICK, BEVELED , GLASS CRYSTAL, I ALSO NEED TO POINT OUT THE MARKINGS INSIDE THE SCREW ON AND OFF BACK PLATE, "HAMILTON WATCH CO".(a star) "10K.ROLLED GOLD PLATE" "LANCASTER,PA." #148632. THERE ARE NO JEWELERS MARKS.THERE IS A SCRATCH AROUND THE EDGE INSIDE THE BACK PLATE, CAUSED BY A LOOSE SCREW, WHEN THE BACK WAS REMOVED THE FIRST TIME.THIS HAPPENS AT TIMES DURING SHIPMENT WHICH CAN NOT BE AVOIDED.

[John Cote]

I agree that there is almost no way that the dial of this watch is original. I have looked at all my Hamilton ads and this is a much earlier dial than would have come on this watch. Fortunatly or unforutnatly, all 16 size 3 footed Hamilton dials are interchangable.

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JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[Steve Maddox]

John,

What I believe Shawn is trying to say is that while the serial numbers of both the case and movement match in the two auctions above, the dial on the watch now is different from the one that was on it when it was in the previous auction. The previous dial appears to be a melamine type "Railway Special" dial, while the current one is a single sunk porcelain dial, obviously incorrect for a 992B.

With the relatively short time eBay auctions are available after they've ended, you'd think that some of these "quick-buck artists" could at least wait until the old auction was deleted before pulling a stunt like this.

Of course, if anyone looks carefully at the bow on this watch, it's apparent that it's far from "pristine mint condition." Not only does it show apparent marks, it also looks to be quite worn. All things considered, I think this guy's eBay name is probably sound advice -- "watch it."

By the way, Barry, there is no reserve.


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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[misterfox]

And another thing..... Look carefully at the boxes..... The first auction(broken crystal) shows what appears to be a cardboard 'slipcase', and the current auction shows a box with the cigarette case....
Bryan

[ShawnM]

I just wanted to point out that the seller obviously swapped out the dials on the watch and cleaned it up a bit to try to sell it as an all original watch, which this obviously isn't!!

ShawnM

[Jon Miller]

When I come across a case like this on ebay, I report it and they usually kill the auction. This one seems pretty blatant.

[ShawnM]

How do you go about filing a complaint on Ebay to get this auction ended?

[JohnL]

Take a look at the watch box he's got posted, it clearly states "21 Jewel Railway Special"
The dial currently on this watch does not match what a 992B should have for a Railway special. The dial should be marked "Railway Special"

Its not all original at this point with the incorrect style dial on the watch.

[Tom Huber]

I had always thought that any 992B should come standard with a Souble sunk dial, but I have one with a very nice Single sunk dial with box car numbers. I have no way of knowing if the dial is original, but I'm quite certain that the dial was not switched to enhance the value. I bought it in 1987 from the local gold dealer for $40. He had taken it in with several other solid gold watches and just wanted rid of it. BTW the watch SN is C-175,495. So, I don't believe that it is a later made 992B. Tom

[Jon Miller]

To complain to ebay, you have to do quite a bit of clicking around from their homepage, but if you are patient you'll find a link to customer complaints where you can make your case. I'm sorry I did not mark the link and don't remember exactly how to do it (anybody else?).

A few months ago someone put up an obviously fake IWC and when I complained (you have to make your case persuasively), I received a message from ebay saying the item had been withdrawn. I checked, and it was in fact gone, with a note to the effect that it was withdrawn by the seller. I know others who have done the same.

Ebay recognizes that their credibility is directly threatened by fakes, and they try, I think, to be responsible about it. Yahoo auctions, on the other hand are very often very fishy!

[Freddy]

Concerning the appropriateness of the single sunk 992B dial. Check out eBay 1705420834. From the "man" himself.

[terry hall]

To all:

I had written the seller before leaving for Mid-Winter regional concerning the dial. I gave an opinion based on what I saw at that time and did not see the problems that have been discovered. I can foward the email I sent him before these developments. Please let me know if you want them. I basically said the dial was the only problem. I WAS WRONG!

The investigation done by ShawnM is eye-opening and certainly changes the opinion I gave the seller in an email. The evidence presented by ShawnM is conclusive.

My first concern was the obvious dial change.
I sent him information on what a 121 dial should be from a 1949 cataloge.

The investigation of the buyer history shows without a doubt the changing of the configuration of the watch and its packaging. I do not think the celluliod box will not fit in a slip case box. The label does appear to have been removed from the slip apart box.

And yes the bow is worn, certainly too much for the condition stated. IMHO

I have also seen single sunk boxcar dials in porcelain and melamine with hamilton in block letters on 992b's over the years. The 1949 ad shows a single sunk RWS dial. I am sure it is melamine, not porcelain.

[Barry G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
THE DIAL 121 IS THE ORIGINAL SINGLE SUNK PORCELAIN DIAL WITH RED FIVE MINUTE MARKERS, BOLD BLACK ARABIC MARKERS.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
On Feb-15-02 at 06:56:11 PST, seller added the following information:

The original dial(121)which comes with this item was and is a metal dial with Melamine coating and painted markers. Which is correct for this item. I just like an original porcelain dial,was my reason for swappping. I do not care what the NAWCC forum or Steve Maddox says.I am not a fast buck artist. Member #0142494
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmmm.......

Barry


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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)



[This message has been edited by Barry G (edited 02-16-2002).]

[Barry G]

watchit4:

Your "revised description" may be factual, but your original description wasn't. You stated that the dial on the watch was the "ORIGINAL SINGLE SUNK PORCELAIN DIAL" when, in fact, the original dial on the watch was the double-sunk melamine dial that was on the watch when you bought it. I commend you for correcting the misinformation later on instead of trying to sell the orignal dial separately for an extra buck, but that doesn't change the fact that you were being fraudulent when you first posted the auction.

Of course, then there's the bit about the "ORIGINAL CELLULOID HAMILTON IVORY 'FLIP TOP BOX'" that yoiu describe, in spite of the fact that this is clearly not the same box the watch had when you bought it.

I won't quibble about the condition of the watch (whether the bow has enough wear to disqualify the watch from being in "NEAR MINT CONDITION"), since I haven't seen the watch in person and really can't tell from the pictures. But you were certainly being fraudently about the dial before you revised your description, and you're STILL being fraudulent about the box.

Barry


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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)



[This message has been edited by Barry G (edited 02-17-2002).]

[ShawnM]

Well said Barry!!!!


ShawnM

[ShawnM]

It's kinda funny that the label on the first auction that he acquired the watch, covered the whole side of the box and the new auction there's quite a bit of room around the label. I don't think this guy will ever come clean about his deception!!! Is there anyway he could be evicted from the NAWCC?

[Barry G]

Shawn: Well, I apologize for not looking at the two auctions closely enough the first time.

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[Yiddil]

Im flabergasted at what that just sold for!!! and very confused????????????

[Steve Maddox]

Perhaps since someone here felt inspired to alert the seller about this discussion here, maybe that same person will feel similarly inspired to alert the buyer, so that he/she may make an "informed" decision.

It might not hurt to inform the next bidder or two as well, just in case. Surely any "honest seller" wouldn't mind. :biggrin:

Besides, isn't "education" part of the NAWCC mission?

SM

[Jon Miller]

The buyer was aware of this discussion and must have thought the value of the watch was not affected by the things that were disclosed here. To each his/her own...

[Steve Maddox]

strd34ford,

So that we here can perhaps better learn how to serve the public, would you mind telling us if you feel our discussion here was beneficial to you, or not?

Would you have known the whole story about the watch if it hadn't come to light here, and do you think you'd have gotten the (real) original box and dial without this discussion?

Any additional info will be greatly appreciated!

SM