Opinion About Waltam Pocket Watch?

[popeye]

Purchased 1883 vintage American Waltham size 16 pocket watch.The cover is 25 year gold filled English Make Brand hunting case(It has number 689 on it). The stem-set stem-wind grade 88 13 jewel movement runs strong and is serial number 9260083. What is size 16 as far as diameter size? Also any opinions,information, and "stuff" about this watch would certainly be appreciated. Thanks, as always! http://i16.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/43/43/82_12_sb.JPG http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/48/95/c8_12_sb.JPG http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/43/3e/ca_12_sb.JPG

[popeye]

Purchased 1883 vintage American Waltham size 16 pocket watch.The cover is 25 year gold filled English Make Brand hunting case(It has number 689 on it). The stem-set stem-wind grade 88 13 jewel movement runs strong and is serial number 9260083. What is size 16 as far as diameter size? Also any opinions,information, and "stuff" about this watch would certainly be appreciated. Thanks, as always! http://i16.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/43/43/82_12_sb.JPG http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/48/95/c8_12_sb.JPG http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/43/3e/ca_12_sb.JPG

[Kent]

popeye:

The American Waltham Watch Co. (Waltham, MA) had its origins in the 1850's. It was the first successful company in America to manufacture watches in mass production using machinery to make identical (or at least, near identical) parts. Over the next hundred years or so of its existence, its output of jeweled watches (over 34 million) was only exceeded by one other company, the National Watch Co. at Elgin, IL. Commonly referred to as "Waltham," the company made a full line of watches ranging from modest, affordable watches to some of the finest watches made in this country. An 1884 article on the American Watch Co. (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/walthampage.html) is available on Greg Frauenhoff's website.

You can find out some basic facts about your Waltham watch by entering the serial number on the movement (the "works") in the field on the NAWCC Information Storage - Waltham Serial Number Data Base (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/LookupSN.asp) (don't use any commas). There is also a Glossary (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/Glossary.htm) of the terms provided by the serial number lookup. Should the date not be listed there, this Waltham Production Date (http://www.oldwatch.com/walthamdate.html) chart is a means for determining the approximate production date.

I've done so and learned that your watch is an unadjusted grade A.W.Co. built in about 1898. The gilt plates and plain regulator indicate that it is a rather modest watch.

Unadjusted movements are those for which no effort has been made to adjust the watch to temperature or position. Or, no provision has been made to allow for these adjustments. Whatever variation in the timekeeping rate results from a change in temperature, or the position in which the watch is carried, exists as a result of the way that the particular watch was built. This has to be accepted as the best that watch the can do. Fortunately, just about all of the mass-produced, jeweled, American, unadjusted watches could keep time within a few minutes a day.

Like many of our other systems of measurement, American pocket watch movement and case sizes can be traced back to an English system, one known as the Lancashire gage. In this system, the size is based upon the diameter of the watch plate to which the dial is fastened, known as the pillar plate. 0-size has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" (yeah, right!). Nominal sizes then increment by 1/30" for each count. Although there are exceptions, most pocket watches are sized to even numbers with the most common being 0, 6, 12, 16 and 18. These account for the vast majority of American-made watches. A 6-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" plus 6/30", or 1-11/30". The diameter of a 16-size movement's pillar plate is 1-21/30", and an 18-size watch is one whose pillar plate diameter is 1-23/30" ( 1-5/30" plus 16/30" and 18/30" respectively). For sizes below 0-size (written x/0), the 1/30” is subtracted from the 1-5/30. Thus a 6/0-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 29/30”. This is right up there with 12 inches to a foot, 16 ounces to a pound and 32 ounces to a quart. The same people have brought us the term hundredweight, which isn’t a hundred of anything but it is equal to 8 stone. Since a stone is equal to 14 pounds, a hundredweight is equal to 112 pounds.

Also see What Size Is My Watch? (http://barrygoldberg.net/watchguide/size.htm) on Barry Goldberg’s website.

[Tom McIntyre]

Popeye, your watch was made around 1899 or 1900 and is a lower quality example of the 1888 model. It is not in particularly good condition with spots on the winding wheels and some discoloration of the plates.

These were made in lower grades all the way down to 7 jewels. So yours is better than a lot of examples.

There are some nicer examples of the 1888 model Waltham on my web site. This one is 17 jewels American Grade. It has some rough handling on the winding wheels that left some scratches, but is in good condition overall. The 17 jewel examples in American grade are less common than the 19J or 21J examples.

http://www.awco.org/AWCo/American/17j88OF/Movement_small.jpg (http://www.awco.org/AWCo/American/17j88OF/Movement.jpg)
If you click on this picture it will get larger. There are lots of other Walthams displayed at American Watch Co. (http://www.awco.org/AWCo/)

[rrwatch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">9260083 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A 16 size movement is 1 and 21/30ths of an inch in diameter or 1.700 inches across the pillar plate. Each size upwards increases the diameter by 1/30th of an inch.
However, your Model 1888 waltham is not exactly a 16 size, it is about 16 and 1/2 size, and will not fit into a standard 16 size case, as it is both too large in diameter and too thick to fit. These movements take special cases, which will accept the larger diameter and thickness as well as the special winding stem that is part of the movement rather than the case.
While some of the high grade Model 1888 movements generate a lot of collector interest, the unique hand setting mechanism is a weak point in terms of mechanical reliability.
Your 13 jewel gilt movement is a medium to low grade example.

[popeye]

Some great stuff here, thanks. What does the year on the case mean? If mine said 25 year, what does that mean? Again thxs,

[Kent]

popeye:

A large proportion of movements are housed in gold-filled cases. These cases are made of a sheet of inexpensive, "composition" metal (brass), sandwiched between two thinner sheets of gold by applying heat and pressure. Greg Davis has posted an excellent description of the old ref::Gold Filled Process. This produces a much heavier layer of gold than electro-plating. One process of doing this is defined by the term, "rolled gold-plate" (which is generally considered to use a thinner gold sheet, see a old ref::Discussion On The Topic). The gold sheet that becomes the inside of the case is thinner than the gold sheet that becomes the outside of the case. Frequently, the purity of the gold used in the sheets, expressed in karats, is stamped inside the back of the case. Some case companies indicated the thickness of the outer layer of gold by using different trademarks for different thicknesses. Before federal regulations outlawed the practice, some case companies indicated the thickness of the outer layer by the number of years for which the case was warranted. Not all case companies were forthright about marking the cases or honoring the warranty (which is what gave rise to the federal regulations). Frequently, the color of the gold (imparted by the metal with which the gold is alloyed) is expressed in conjunction with the term, "gold-filled." Thus it is not uncommon to see terms such as "yellow gold-filled," "white gold-filled," "green gold-filled," and so forth, used in case descriptions.

[doug sinclair]

popeye,

I think the best quality of gold filled layer was the 25-year one. They were made in 20-year grades as well. Anything less than a 20-year would likely be considered rolled gold plate.

[Kent]

I think that there was at least one grade of gold-filled case above 25 year - a case that was guaranteed to be replaced if it ever wore through.

Crescent referred to it as their Extra (http://photos14.flickr.com/16861337_9e0ca33a48_o.jpg) grade.

Fahys called it the Permanent (http://photos13.flickr.com/19807186_331580a49c_o.jpg) case.

The Illinois Watch Case Co. (not to be confused with the Illinois Watch Co. or the Elgin Watch Co.) Elgin Pride (http://photos16.flickr.com/19807185_3b823d0f73_o.jpg) grade.

[popeye]

Great information here. You can really find out alot from here! Thanks. Just looking for an everyday pocket watch, that works and looks good. I want to keep it under $200. There are so many pocketwatces out there. The serial numbers help quite a bit with the glossary. I have this one, but will keep my out for another.