Waltham 8-Day Movement Jewel Counts

[Tim]

I just acquired a c. 1920 Waltham travel clock with the ubiquitous dual-mainspring 8-day movement. It looks like only the escapement is jeweled. Is this true? Did these models ever get produced with higher jewel counts?

S/N: 23424649

I only have seller's dial shots: http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/collect4all/3091004a.jpg

Interestingly, the hands had been partially relumed with modern glow-in-the-dark type material. The original luminous material on the rest of the dial is flaking off, necessitating caution when I took the bezel off for cleaning.

-Tim

[Tim]

I just acquired a c. 1920 Waltham travel clock with the ubiquitous dual-mainspring 8-day movement. It looks like only the escapement is jeweled. Is this true? Did these models ever get produced with higher jewel counts?

S/N: 23424649

I only have seller's dial shots: http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/collect4all/3091004a.jpg

Interestingly, the hands had been partially relumed with modern glow-in-the-dark type material. The original luminous material on the rest of the dial is flaking off, necessitating caution when I took the bezel off for cleaning.

-Tim

[4thdimension]

I see them with 7 or 15 jewels. They are ubiquitous but often persnickety. I love'm when they work with normal cleaning but I've been having some doubts about them because so many come down with peculiar hard to identify ailments. They look rock solid in design but,
considering that, an inordinant percentage seem to perform poorly after normal service. They are simple to work on and parts are abundant.
The 7 jewel versions probably have an expiration date.
Tim, On the issue of radioactive stuff, have you had your kids yet? This stuff should not be taken lightly. There was an article in LIFE
magazine after WWII which detailed the gruesome effects of radium on wartime dialpainters. Take
precautions to be safer and limit your exposure
to radium! Watch repair can be hazardous to ones health on several fronts! Be aware.
-Cort

<(';')>

[BrianC]

Cort,
I believe too much is being made about the hazards of having radium dials for watches. I just finished a book titled "Radium Girls" in which it tells of these dial painters that used the lip point method when painting dials. That is when they constantly put the radium coated brush in their mouth to make the brush pointed. It also goes on to tell how the girls use to paint their teeth and also put radium in their hair when going out on a date so they would have a glow effect in the dark. Ya, it's no wonder they got ill.
There are a lot of doctors in the NAWCC. It would be interesting to here from them, how much radium is in an old dial as opposed to a chest xray. Has anyone ever heard of a watchmaker getting radium poisoning? I haven't.
Brian C.

[4thdimension]

Brian,
Is the book put out as fact or fiction? I tend
to not get through the later. There is enough
wierd truth out there to keep me literally
consumed! Is "Radium Girls" recommendable to us
non-fiction folk??
On your latter point, yes, I have heard of
the death of a watchmaker by radium poisoning
by eyeball cancer. His son is a practicing jeweler and I can probably get details if necessary.
A simple recommendation to new watchmakers is, "avoid radium". I just sold a Ca. 1965
"Flipper" watch this week with the Ra symbol
at the bottom. I doubt this will be resold to a child and I don't consider this watch a child's toy. I am of the belief that, as long as the crystal is intact, the watch is pretty safe. The main threat from radium is if it is stirred up and airbourne.
We watchmakers need to be aware that, sure, that one old 50's chronograph is not a major hazard but, how many of those hands and dials are hanging around your bench?
I buy lots of old dead watchmaker junk and
I am not deluding myself that this stuff is
benign and safe. I sold a 50's chronograph to a
pal, and gov't employee, who had to return it
because he set off alarms when he tried to enter his workplace.
All this is true so I repeat, take radium
seriously!
-Cort

<(';')>

[BrianC]

Hi Cort,
Yes Radium Girls by Claudia Clark is a non fiction book. It is a study of the woman dial painters. They were taught to lip point their brushes, which means they were eating the radium paint. Some got ill, quite a few died but they all lip pointed their brushes. The book states that by the 1940s there had been as many as 4,000 woman dial painters. It also states that most of the health problems (cancers) happened up until 1927 when after that, safety precautions seemed to have been effective enough to prevent cancers like "bone and head cancers". In my opinion and it is only MY opinion, unless you are in constant contact with radium dials and put your hands in your mouth, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. As to the person setting off an alarm because of a radium dial watch he was wearing, I don't believe that. In your own words, if the watch has a good crystal, it's pretty safe. How then could enough radium leak out to set off an alarm? Just my own opinion.
Brian C.

[Tim]

The dial produces mostly beta-radiation (checked with a GM counter). The heavy glass crystal blocks most of this. I'm also not a watchmaker, so I don't get regular up-close exposure. I was careful to line my work area to catch any particles of paint that might flake off. I also checked my work area for contamination with the GM counter and washed my hands before eating anything.

Personally, the radiation level is so low that the only danger is from ingesting/inhaling particulate matter. Caution and hand-washing should be sufficient, but having a GM counter handy is always a help.

-Tim

[Harvey Mintz]

Everything everyone has said about exposure to Radium dials not being that dangerous is true.

HOWEVER, any nuclear engineer will tell you that ANY unnecessary exposure is a bad idea because nobody knows what a dose will do to a particular person - all they know is what it will do to the "average" person (more accurately, they know the statistics about what a sample dose will do to a particular population that they happen to have data on. Since they can't really expose populations to varying doses and get really good statistical samples on large populations, these numbers can't be considered particularly accurate).

Bottom line - don't take a radiation dose (Alpha, Beta, and especially not gamma) if you don't have to.

Harvey J. Mintz

[Don Dahlberg]

Changing the subject back to jewel count. The Waltham 8 day clocks came in both 7 and 15 jewels. If the dial just says Waltham, it is most likely 7 jewels. If it says Waltham Watch Co., then it is most likely 15 jewels. Many had special dials with jeweler's names.

In the early stages of WWII, the US was very short of marine chromometers. Roth Brothers Chronometer Company was commisioned to convert these 8-day car, desk and travel clocks to meet the need for deck clocks. They were upgraded to 15 jewels and recased. Those with large bimetal balances performed very well according to Marvin Whitney of the US Naval Observatory.

Don Dahlberg

[Tim]

Don:

Thanks for the info! I had heard about the conversion to chronometers somewhere, but not with the details you provided.

The clock I've got is of the 7 jewel variety. Running a bit fast when I got it, but regulation is helping out. I'd love to get the dial and hands redone with some non-crumbly, non-radioactive material...when it's next in for service, I guess.

Thanks,

Tim

[Kent]

Here's a little bit more on Roth Bros' conversions. See the link, below.

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[Tim]

Fascinating...thanks, Kent!

-Tim

[wally waltham]

:smile:Whereas you have waxed Roth, covered the road with auto/travel clocks, and would, in time, venture into the boudoir to mirror & off the shelf clocks (all with their respective 7 & 15 jewel movements) your list is ultimately "tankless" :wink: as you've overlooked the 9 jewel Tank Clock.
More Sleep would produce better Humor!!
Timely Regards,
ww