on the verge of insanity.

[fume happy]

okay... so i got this 8-day sessions time only mantel movement. cleaned it, bushed it, runs great, but ticks a little weird. ran it for a few days, and it ran nice and strong, but i couldn't get the crutch in beat without drastic maneuvers. so... i put a pair of hands on it, and it seems to be gaining 1 hour for every eight. I had calculated out the pendulum length, and made it a little longer just as a safety measure.

then i realized what the problem was. One of the pallets was bent at a funny angle. I counted 42 teeth on the escape wheel. time savers says the verge should embrace 9 teeth on this kind of escapement, but mine was only embraching 8. the distance between 11 teeth is .935" inches, and subtracting .059 yields .870. when i heat treated the verge to make it mallieable, and adjusted, now it doesn't even touch the escape wheel!
could someone please tell me what i am doing wrong?
Thank you!!!!

[fume happy]

okay... so i got this 8-day sessions time only mantel movement. cleaned it, bushed it, runs great, but ticks a little weird. ran it for a few days, and it ran nice and strong, but i couldn't get the crutch in beat without drastic maneuvers. so... i put a pair of hands on it, and it seems to be gaining 1 hour for every eight. I had calculated out the pendulum length, and made it a little longer just as a safety measure.

then i realized what the problem was. One of the pallets was bent at a funny angle. I counted 42 teeth on the escape wheel. time savers says the verge should embrace 9 teeth on this kind of escapement, but mine was only embraching 8. the distance between 11 teeth is .935" inches, and subtracting .059 yields .870. when i heat treated the verge to make it mallieable, and adjusted, now it doesn't even touch the escape wheel!
could someone please tell me what i am doing wrong?
Thank you!!!!

[Tony Ambruso]

In fear of stating an obvious observation: is it possible that either the escape wheel or the verge were not original parts and the pallets were bent to make the clock operate at some point?

I can recommend Conover's book "Clock Repair Skills" where he outlines and modifies what Laurie Penman writes in "Practical Clock Escapements." Pages 28-35 (Conover) detail the type of adjustments you are making with an informative section on analyzing recoil pallet angles quickly, beginning on page 32 (Conover).

[fume happy]

the escape wheel dovetails with everything else, and the styling is consistant. here is a pic of the movement before i cleaned it. unfortunately, i don't have my camera with me this weekend, so i can't get pics of the clean movement.
http://static.flickr.com/29/101362349_a617276432.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/38/101362348_d0472c7ee9.jpg?v=0
i'm basically just looking for a consensus that the tooth measurement i took is a resonable one for a mantle clock, so i can order a new verge, since i suspect the other one is not original.
Thank you!

[fume happy]

thanks for the suggestion tony, i may pick it up at the next mart if i see it... the basic clock repair book i have covers the basics, but doesn't go into detail.

[Robert M.]

Adjusting the crutch is basically going to level out your drops Fumey.In other words if your crutch is out of kilter you would have ,lets say, the entry pallet buried between the escape wheel teeth and the exit pallet sticking up in the air.Level your movement on the rack and then adjust your crutch so both drops(the gap betwwen the tip of the tooth and the tip of the pallets) is equal.OK,now see that rectangular arm with the radiused end that retains one pivot on your pallet?That is an adjustment,you can swing it back and forth.That controls your lock(the depth your escape wheel teeth enter the space between the teeth.Adjust that for maximum lock without the pallet binding or locking up.If you don't have enough lock your escape wheel will skip a few teeth as it rotates.Play around with your lock depths till you find a common ground.Escapements can be a real pain but what the hell it's good practice.Believe me we've all been there.
Best of luck with your escapement problems,let us know how you made out.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

[fume happy]

wow.
I had absolutely no clue that those moved.
:biggrin:
thank you bob. I will play with it tomorrow after my fiancee leaves.
~fumey

[fume happy]

okay, update. It seems to work when i wound the spring and applied power. Any final thoughts before i apply a final polish, and harden up again?
http://static.flickr.com/35/102639046_d1d34125cb.jpg?v=0

[Robert M.]

Congratulations Fumey,I'm glad to see you got your clock functioning again.Ain't escapements fun.It seems like everytime you can get one of those suckers to function properly you want to break out the champagne. :wink:
I'll tell you what I like to do when all is said and done after all the readjusting and re-hardening has been taken care of.I take some medium grit Diamatine Powder and clock oil,mix it into a slurry and apply it to a Dremel Polishing Wheel.I use that to polish my pallets and I gotta tell you those pallets look like mirrors when I'm done.It doesn't take much effort either.Maybe ten minutes.Try it sometimes.
Well I'm glad everything eventually went well for you.Keep us posted.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

[Bob W]

FH

Just a quick look at your picture seems to ndicate that the entry pallet angle is off. I was looking for a good illustration from the web to post but couldn't find one quickly, but the onoe below may help. A general guide that I have seen several places is that the surface that the escape wheel tooth hits should point toward the inside of the rim of the escape wheel (the circle at the end of the spokes). Yours seems to point toward the center of the wheel or even behind it a little.

Maybe some of the others can take a look and provide a more experienced opinion. Of course if it works.........


I did add this link for a reference. You will notice in this illustration that the pallet faces would be very close to intersecting the circle at the base of the teeth if they were extended graphically.

Recoil escapement (http://www.abbeyclock.com/brecoil.html)


Bob W

[fume happy]

well, I kinda figured my geometry was off a bit.
That physics illustration really helps out... i had seen stills of recoil pallets, but now that I've seen it in motion, it clicks. Since i now know the exit pallet can point outward a bit more, i'm going to adjust the entry pallet accordingly.
As far as the dremel is concerned, i already practicied giving it a mirror finish once, but it got kinda dull after all the adjustments.
Thank you very much!!

[RJSoftware]

Hey Bob W;

Does that palette angle rule apply to other escape types as well?

Where blade angle of palettes should intercept with inner radius of sawtooth blades of escape wheel?

[Bob W]

RJ:

I went back and looked a little more for a web link that would have a little better explantion than I could give but haven't found a good example yet. I have accumulated a number of books on clock repair and the description of this geometry was given in one of them as a quick way to determine if the pallet angles were 'in the ball park'. This seemed reasonable to me as most folks won't have anyway to measure the angles accurately anyway. Having the angles set perfectly probably is this most efficient configuration; but the clock, as FH has stated, will still run when they aren't perfect.

I did add the link (also from Headrick's web site) below for the Graham escapement and the angles appear to again follow this rule. I couldn't say what other escapements would follow this also.

Graham Escapement (http://mvheadrick.free.fr/bbigrhm.html)

How many others use this as a method for checking pallet angles quickly?

Bob

[RJSoftware]

Bob W;

I was hoping for a good general rule to use with only eyeball accuracy.

RJ

[Bob W]

RJ:

I checked the books I have and the two listed below have the technique described in them. Another had it also but these two were a little more clear in their explantion. Hopefully you can find one of these to look at or one from another author with similar info:

- Clock Repair Skills by Steven Conover
- The Clock Repairer's Handbook by Laurie Penman

Bob

[Mike Phelan]

FH
The entry pallet looks too straight, and most of the impulse will be on the edge of the pallet, not the tip of the tooth, as it should be.
The entry pallet is usually at about 90 degrees to a line drawn from the escape wheel arbor to the exit pallet - not too critical.

RJ - This only applies to strip pallets and some other recoil escapements.

However, if you set it as it should be, it probably would be impossible to move it far enough by one tooth, so that the drops are right, as they seem to be now.

Therefore, I think the pallets have been swapped, and maybe the entry pallet shortened, and you have insufficient impulse.
HTH

[Scottie-TX]

. . . . .and Bob W's deadbeat has ZERO overswing - must be running on 3oz.!

[fume happy]

well, i managed to angle the entry pallet in a tad more, so it looks a bit more proper, and i heated to a nice cherry red, then quenched in mineral oil that was ice cold.
I then polished the faces to a mirror finish. Reassembled the movement, set to running. Nice strong, even beat. but still fast... double checked my wheel and pinion calculation for drop length...
oops.
Drop length should be 6.4, not 5.4.

The movement is not original to the case, I had purchased them both separate. Until i realized that my drop is about an eighth of an inch above the case floor, i thought it was a historically correct movement for that case. Oh well... back to ebay... :mad:
Thank you all for your input.
Mike, I had also wondered if the entry pallet had been shortened... there definatly seemed to be some descrepency.
~Fumey