Question about cases.

[diggummup]

I HAVE A WALTHAM POCKET WATCH,SER.#7504475.IT HAS A SWING RING CASE MADE BY C.W.C.CO. WITH A SERIAL NUMBER 978179.Anyway it seems as if the works are a little loose in this case.Like maybe the case isn't matched to the works.Is this normal? There shouldn't be any rattling around when the watch is in the case should there be? My other waltham doesn't do this but it doesn't work and this one does.Also,if a case isn't marked 14 or 18 k does that mean it's only goldplated? How do you tell? One more thing,is it common practice for repairmen to inscribe in very small letters and numbers inside the watch case ,info on repairs or service or something? Thanks any info will be greatly appreciated.

[diggummup]

I HAVE A WALTHAM POCKET WATCH,SER.#7504475.IT HAS A SWING RING CASE MADE BY C.W.C.CO. WITH A SERIAL NUMBER 978179.Anyway it seems as if the works are a little loose in this case.Like maybe the case isn't matched to the works.Is this normal? There shouldn't be any rattling around when the watch is in the case should there be? My other waltham doesn't do this but it doesn't work and this one does.Also,if a case isn't marked 14 or 18 k does that mean it's only goldplated? How do you tell? One more thing,is it common practice for repairmen to inscribe in very small letters and numbers inside the watch case ,info on repairs or service or something? Thanks any info will be greatly appreciated.

[Mike Kenley]

diggummup,

Could you post a photo of the movement? A photo of the dial might be nice also.

[Kent]

diggummup:

C.W.C.CO. stands for the Crescent Watch Case Co. (http://photos9.flickr.com/13966764_fbd5b637c7_o.jpg) According to "History of the American Watch Case," Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)):

From page 48:
The Chicago Watch Case Co. started in Chicago in 1882, manufacturing gold cases, mostly 10K. Around 1885, the firm moved to Brooklyn, NY, where, after a reorganization, it was renamed as the Crescent Watch Case Co. All production was sold through the Waltham Co. agents, Robbins & Appleton. (Note: The distinctive Crescent Watch Case Co. trade mark can be seen in a 1901 Crescent Ad (http://photos14.flickr.com/16861337_9e0ca33a48_o.jpg).)

In 1904 the Crescent Watch Case Co. was merged with the Philadelphia Watch Case Co., Bates and Bacon and the Keystone Watch Case Co.

From page 7:
"... After a series of mergers in 1904 the name became the Keystone Watch Case Co., Riverside, N.J."

Regardless of the company’s name, the cases continued to be stamped with the previous, well-known trade names.

The movement should be held snug against the swing of the case by the case screws. There are several possibilites for it being loose.

1. The case screws (if both are there) aren't lightly tightened. If not, tighten them (lightly, don't apply a lot of force).

2. The case screws are tight to the movement, but the movement is still loose in the swing ring. Sometimes the movement is slightly thicker than the swing ring. Special washers, with arcs that press against the case ring, are sometimes used to correct this problem.

3. The movement is held tightly to the swing ring by the case screws, but the swing ring itself is loose on its hinge. Minor hinge damage can be corrected with a smellpair of needle-nose pliers. More extensive damage may need to be corrected by a case repair person/service, such as Wuischpard & Son (http://www.watchcaserepair.com/).

Tiny numbers and marks, hand-scratched on the inside of the back of a case, are most likely watch repairer's or jeweler's marks. When watches were serviced, the watch repairer would place his mark and/or a date code inside the back. The marking might include a code to indicate the type of service that was done. Thus, when the watch came back, the watchmaker would instantly know just when he (or she) last worked on it.

Good luck,

[4thdimension]

Kent,
You are a marvel! Your consistant and excellent attention to these questions is a true asset to this organization. Bravo!
Diggummup,
I believe the Crescent Co. is one that clearly marked any gold cases they made but there are
several clues that will tip you off that a case is gold filled(brass clad in solid gold).
Most cases that have been used will develop hints of wear that can be seen with magnification. Some places to look include the
very bottom of the case and the areas near the hinges if any. Another spot is on the neck just below the crown. If the movement can be removed from the case, a difference in color
inside the center band is usually a tip off too. If there is no clue either from the case markings or careful examination then a simple
test with acid can be performed BUT this should be tried on this inner band and not to
any part of the case that is normally visible.
Testing can and should leave no discernable mark. Weighing specific gravity might work too but I've never heard of anyone trying it. :smile:
-Cort

[mch]

By the way, one of the incorporators of the Chicago Watch Case Co. was Martin S. Smith of Detroit, who had become somewhat wealthy and invested in various business, especially lumber.
He is the same M. S. Smith of the Detroit jewelery concern, and of the rare M. S. Smith watches. It is not clear that he is associated with the Chicago Watch Case business after its move to Brooklyn.

Mike

[Kent]

Thanks Mike! I've added that tidbit to the file and it'll appear the next time somebody asks about the Crescent Watch Case Co.

[diggummup]

Thanks for the replies and info. on the case.Sorry it took me so long to get back here.I don't know how to post pics.The works only seem loose when they are put back it the case(swing ring)with the bezel screwed back on..They aren't loose when they are swung out and it's not the crystal that's loose and it's not the hinge to the case.Should the bezel(front part of the case with the crystal) have a rubber washer of some type around the inside of it?That's what it seems like.Also,after a closer look inside,I see that it says "safety barrel" and "adjusted".What does that mean? How can I find out how many jewels this has? It has a white porcelain face with black hour numbers,surrounded by red numbers on the outside every 5 minutes.It also has the second hand below the center of the dial just above the six-o'clock position.All 3 of the hands are a blue gun-metal color.That's about all I can describe without a picture.Sorry if my terminology isn't quite right,you guys seem to really know your stuff around here,I feel like an idiot!LOL.Peace....

[Kent]

Hi diggummup:

Currently, Tom Chaudoir, the NAWCC Message Board Administrator, is recommending that those who do not have web space in which to post pictures register for a free account at flickr.com (http://flickr.com/register.gne). This may now open a Yahoo page, but it will still let you register to post pictures. Their menu-driven procedure for loading pictures is about as easy as it gets. After you enlarge the picture, using flickr's magnifying glass icon (the magnifying glass icon appears in a toolbar above the loaded & saved picture once you've clicked on the picture), scroll down below the picture to find the field labeled "1. Grab the photo's URL:" The link in that field is the one to post on the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board. Vic Rose has posted an excellent old ref::Description on How to Post a Picture on the NAWCC Clock Message Board, which of course also works on for posting a picture on the pocket watch message board.

You can find out some basic facts about your Waltham watch by entering the serial number on the movement (the "works") in the field on the Serial Number link accessable from the NAWCC Information Storage (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm) website. Don't use any commas in entering the serial number. There is also a Glossary (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/Glossary.htm) of the terms provided by the serial number lookup. Note: When a number appears by itself in the Comment Column, it is the page in the factory serial list where the entry and explaination appeared. i.e. "Comment 42" is on page 42 of “Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements,� Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book"). Or, a similar search may be done at the Swiss - Waltham Website (http://www.waltham.ch/cgi/waltham/search.asp). This website also has a short history of the American Waltham Watch Co. and other interesting information. But, as old ref::Tom McIntyre Pointed Out, more complete information is available at the NAWCC Information Storage website.

Should the date not be listed in the search of the NAWCC Information Storage - Waltham Serial Number Data Base, Oldwatch.com's Waltham Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/walthamdate.html), or the PocketWatchSite's Waltham Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/walthamserials.html) are a means for determining the approximate production date. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Waltham, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more.

Having checked at the above mentioned websites, I see that Waltham movement serial number 7,504,475 is a 12-size, grade No. 240, 17-jewel movement made about 1896.