Interesting Ebay Item

[MikeB]

Hi -

What do you all think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2609071280&category=3940

I have contacted the seller regarding my own opinion...

Mike.

[MikeB]

Hi -

What do you all think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2609071280&category=3940

I have contacted the seller regarding my own opinion...

Mike.

[Steve Maddox]

I think it's a "Swiss fake," but I'm not 100% sure. Pictures can sometimes be deceiving.

In any event, it's interesting that the movement has #5307, while the dial is marked #5140. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Wm. Ellery with a serial number on the dial.
-------------

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[MikeB]

Hi -

The Model 1857 Wm. Ellery grade was not introduced until much later, with serial number 46,201. Is this correct? Therefore, a SN 5,307 Wm. Ellery cannot be right, I would think. I noticed the dial as well, and the Swiss looking engraving on the movement. It struck me as a fake too.

Mike

[Greg Crockett]

The case stem looks Swiss. The number on the dial is sort of British/Swiss. I have not seen numbers on an American watch dial. The light color of the brass looks Swiss. The watch has atributes of the P.S. Bartlett model. And, I agree, the engraving looks Swiss. All in all, I can't be 100% sure, in part because the seller has not provided pictures of the case markings nor is the picture of the movement all that good.

[Jon Hanson]

This is a Swiss fake, and is not particularly a good copy. Just too many things are worng with it: the plates, the no., the finish, the gilding, the dials, the sig. on the dial, probably the case (I'll can't see it), the dial feet are they 2 or 3?), and a host of other things. Pure JUNK!

I believe that this one was up on fleavbay about a year ago.

I pitty the poor bidder-he is in for a shock and a real reaming.

We need to recruit some of these people into the nawcc and help them from a scre....!

Jon

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
President chapter 149

[MikeB]

Hi -

Thanks. I think that whether or not one is 100% sure that this is a Swiss fake, (and I am), the fact remains that this cannot be American Watch Co. Serial #5,307. That watch would have been an Appleton Tracy grade, and would not have had the Wm. Ellery and the Boston markings, which would come later. It cannot have been produced in 1857. It could not have been made, (or copied), prior to 1862, after the introduction of the Ellery grade.

By the way, I have also noticed that there seems to be no case screws.

We will see what happens when the seller responds and will keep you all posted.

Mike

[bil2054]

Good job to the folks who spotted the problems with this item and took the time to contact the seller, and a high five to the seller, who has withdrawn the item. It's a good thing that, to paraphrase Jethro Tull, 'The watch police never sleeps"!

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710

[Jon Miller]

I am impressed by how quickly this was detected and swept aside. If you check the feedback profile, the seller seems to sell mostly bric-a-brac and may have been taken in him/herself.

I am also curious. When were these Swiss fakes made? Was the ripped-off watch so well regarded in its time that it was counterfeited then, or did the fakes come along later?

[MikeB]

Hi -

I too am impressed by the integrity of the seller. I have not heard from the seller, but have no doubt that he/she was deceived, as were the bidders. These watches were made to deceive people; they deceived them in the 1800's, and they are still deceiving them today.

Jon H:
I guess this makes me a member of the watch police. You may send me my badge. :smile:

Jon M:
A lot of Swiss fakes were being made prior to 1871, after which legislation was passed to mark these watches with their country of origin. They still were being made at least until 1900. Yes, Walthams were well regarded, (and still are by yours truly), and most American made watches were vastly superior to most of the fakes. As for the fake in question, (probably made about 1870-ish), I find it interesting that the makers chose to copy the Wm. Ellery grade, which was a lower grade Waltham. (Hey, they could have made it into an Appleton Tracy). Perhaps they did so because the Ellery was a lower priced working man's watch, and the name might have been more easily recognizable by the masses. They could have also asked a lower price for the fake without it looking too weird. The mismatched numbers on the dial and movement is just another example of sloppy workmanship on these fakes, I would think. The serial numbers themselves were probably meaningless. I have had two "Rockville" fakes, and they both had EXACTLY the same serial number!

Mike

[MikeB]

Oh, and I might as well throw this in...

For those who would like to "stare and compare," I posted these pics elsewhere. These are pictures of my new baby, Waltham P.S. Bartlett serial number 23,304 which was produced more or less at the time when the watch in question was allegedly made. Notice the differences between mine and the Ebay watch:

PSB1 (http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1305.jpg)
PSB2 (http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1304.jpg)
PSB3 (http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1303.jpg)
PSB4 (http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1302.jpg)
PSB5 (http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1301.jpg)
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1301.jpg

[This message was edited by MikeB on January 25, 2003 at 20:11.]

[Jerry Treiman]

Also for comparison, here is a Wm. Ellery (Boston) from 1863, #74011
http://www.nawcc-info.org/Treiman/JT022WmEllery57.jpg

[MikeB]

The watch has traits of both the Wm. Ellery and the P.S. Bartlett watches, but is not correct for either grade...

Mike

Mike Bricker

[Mike306p/Ansoniaman]

Thank You for posting those pictures . MIKE 0136966 :smile:

[bil2054]

I think the mismatched serial numbers probably indicate a compounding of the problems with this watch by parts switching subsequent to the original manufacture. That would be too obvious a clue, given that the manufacturers were pretty clever in other areas of deception, i.e. hiding the required origin marks in scrollwork and engraving, etc.
I also think it's interesting that these watches failed in the marketplace, even after the quality had improved; did the prices increase along with the quality, so that they were no longer too attractive to pass up, or did the public have the attitude, "Oh no, another one of those junk Swiss watches", based on the previous poor quality?

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710

[MikeB]

I think that dial switching in the fake is a possibility too, but imagine that it is more likely that this happened at the factory. This is not a common Swiss fake dial variation, judging by the fact that none of us has seen one, so the chances of finding another similar dial to switch it with (with a different serial number) seems remote.

Maybe the dial painters were putting random serial numbers on the dials, while the movement had random serial numbers as well, (or the same serial number), and it was a case of one hand not watching what the other hand was doing. Just because the movement manufacturers strove to make a close fake, does not mean that the dial painters were as careful...

The thought has also occurred to me that the dial might have originally been plain, and that the Wm ELLERY and serial number markings were added at a later date. After all, consumers in the 1800's would not have cared about the serial number of a watch, so why display it so prominently on the dial? On the other hand, collectors DO care about serial numbers, and the marking may have been added to the dial in order to dupe collectors into believing that they were buying some low serial numbered rarity. But then, the question arises again, why the differing serial numbers?
:confused:

As for the Swiss markings, the watch in question may not have any such markings - they weren't required prior to 1871.

I would imagine that the fakes failed because of consistent poor quality, bad reputations, and probably because of the difficulty associated with repair and finding replacement parts. Also, with the advent of good lower priced American watches, (like the Ellery), they probably could not compete. Did any Swiss fakes actually surpass their American counterparts in quality of workmanship? I wonder... All the ones I have seen have been pretty ugly once you look under the hood...

Mike.
:smile:

Mike Bricker

[This message was edited by MikeB on January 25, 2003 at 13:30.]