Salesman Sample Back on Pocket Watches

[Tom McIntyre]

There are no "original" display backs. There are original "display cases."

Most display cases are simple nickel plated base metal and are often signed for the manufacturer. Most of the cases are snap back and bezel. However, they come in a wide variety of desgigns including screw back and bezel and bayonet back and bezel.

There are also some very nice relatively modern cases that are similar in design to the standard railroad watch case except that they have screw on glass backs as well as fronts. These were made, I believe, by Paul Graehling (sp?) who owned the tools and machinery of the Star Watch Case Co.

Tom McIntyre
2nd VP Elect
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Jon Hanson]

There are the following types of display or glass back cases:

1. glass back display cases, made in most sizes, occasionally signed (Hamilton, Illinois, Waltham, Dueber), mostly plain. These come (mostly) snap bezel & back or hinged. Quick release screw B & B are rare. Watch companies delivered their movements to the jeweler or jobber in these. Hamilton reportedly gave a 50 cent buy back for re-use of these. These are the best for lonely an uncased movements: they provide the collector an alternative to a. case switching (and molesting nice original commoner watches used for recasing), b. an opportunity to view scarce or rare mov'ts, c. are infinitely more attractive than, say, a worn out, brassy GF case, d. require less care than a silveroid that easily tarnishes, and e. provide protection for that stored, scarce movement.

2. glass (on both sides) movement containers. Also used for shipping and packaging that rare mov't; most common are pendantless, although some have the crown and stem but no bow. These are usually squarish and lie flat--most common are tha American Watch Co., Elgin National Watch Co. Illinois Watch Co., and less common others, e.g. South Bend, Ball, etc. These came in metal slip rectangular (or square) containers (Waltham). Elgin made brassy ones that were round and occsionally had glass on one side that fitted into another contsainer.

3. exhibition backs: these were cases with(out)curvettes (dust covers) in addition to either a hinged or snap bezel with glass to view (and protect) the movement. These are highly sought after by collectors, esp. sharp original examples of SW early Howards, certain 18s Illinois (and other) companies, and certain 16s (Elgin convert, and several rarer originally cased watches).

4. Yes, PG, made up various 16 and 18s repro GB display cases during the early 1980s. These were made to look like RR cases and came in good GF (16s) and RGP (18s), plus a few in gold. Easily reproduced from original dies, he used simply 2 bezels and a frame for form this "high" quality glass back.

5. case molestation: the dealers are now (and have been for about 8 years) cutting out silveroids and making GB display cases. (They esp like to use swingrings as these are dredded by most serious collectors!) Others have used damaged silver cases to do the same thing. Yet, still others use two bezels and thus "manufacture" glass backs reasonably and quickly.

Hope this quick overview helps.

Jon

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[This message was edited by Jon Hanson on June 19, 2003 at 8:31.]

[terry hall]

Great monograph Jon.....

Do we have a place to store such writings in a central location....

Like a FAQ section??

.... something to ponder.....

[Jon Hanson]

Hi T,

Yes, we can store it at Sam's webhorology site (WEBHOROLOGY.COM).

Of course, I will have to clean it up a bit and add some other important data that I forgot, as I typed it fast off the top of my head while the LW was paging me for breakfast! :biggrin:

J

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Jon Hanson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phather Phil:
Thanks so much for the wonderful and expert replies. If I understand correctly, the salesman sample is a case, not a back. Is that correct? YES! So the entire case and back and front crystals are involved. YES! Who were the salesmen and to whom were they selling? STORES! Were they selling for the factory, the distributor or the jeweler? FACTORY SHIPPED FOR THE MIDDLEMEN IN MANY INSTANCES! Was it normal for the salesman cased watch to then be returned to a normal case, say, after the movement was no longer being produced? NO! THE MOVEMENTS WERE SHIPPED TO THE JEWLEERS AND STORES BY THE FACTORY.

Can/will anyone please speak to the collectability of salesman cased watches? It sounds like this is a potential collectable area, but that I won't find gold or gold filled examples of original salesman cases. Is that correct? YES, UNLESS THEY ARE REPROS OR SPECIAL MADE.

Is there a rarity factor in play here that makes them more valuable, or is the salesman cased watch a bit of a cast-off to collectors?

I am very appreciative of all your kind help. The knowledge on this board is wonderful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are cases to hold watches.

These are highly popular as there are many times more mov'ts than cases as the cases became worn and damaged easily.

I BEGAN BUYING THESE 45 YEARS AGO ON THE ADVICE OF AN OLD TIME COLLECTOR, GEORGE KELSCH. Many other collectors of the 40-60 era used them as they are the best thing for naked movements, esp rare ones.

Some glass back display cases are rarer than others.

The most popular and usable are not the rarest ones. Fr example, 12s ones, signed are very scarce but who cares?

Advanced collectors have used these for many years, as THEY ARE THE BEST THING FOR AN UNCASED STANDARD SIZE MOV'T.

Jon

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Jon Hanson]

glass back display cases

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Kent]

Phather Phil:

Not too many movements (with dials and hands) shipped in "glass back display cases." The term used earlier, "salesmen's display cases," is perhaps more appropriate.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's. Most watch companies just made movements in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

The watches shipped in "Shipping Tins" (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/columbus_tin_16j_no_27.jpg), some of which had glass in their tops and/or bottoms. These are the containers which the watch companies were accepting back for re-use.

I believe that "salesmen's display cases" were utililzed at least two different ways. First, the distibutor's agent would carry the latest movements around in these to the stores in his district in order show the wares. Second, the movements would sit in the jewelers' display cabinets, housed in these cases. In both instances, the movement, dial and hands are protected while the watches were being examined by the potential buyers. Some of these cases had no provisions for a bow.

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[terry hall]

Some time ago, Jon Hanson provided a scan of a page from Hamilton, showing some advertising items......

On THIS PAGE (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/1909advertisingmaterialsjonhanson.jpg) you will see the cases the glassbacks were carried in possibly by 'salesmen' or even used by jewelers to show the watches.....

thanks Jon...

[Jon Hanson]

glass back display cases were used to house movements that were shipped to jewelers or middle mn who sold these movements. These were complete movements and were used to complete the watch (after case selection by the customer) to make a watch sale. Sure, some middlemen used these to show prospective customers (the jewelers) the goods.

Hamilton, I believe, paid 50 cents each for those glass back display cases for re-use.

Most glass back display cases had pendants, bows, stems and crowns and were USABLE! Some, like Dueber Hampden, were bowless and/or hinged.

Hamilton, Illinois, Waltham, Rockford, South Bend, etc. mov'ts were housed in glass back display cases that were complete with bows. Some Hampden GBs have bows, but most have been added.

Hope this helps clarify this subject.

Jon

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Watch Carefully]

Jon,
Are you saying that &lt;i&gt;every movement&lt;/i&gt; shipped from a factory to a middle man or jeweler was encased in a "glass back display case" as defined above?

I must respectfully disagree. If that were true, then how can we explain the profusion of movement tins and other shipping/storage containiners seen at Marts and on eBay?

It seems to me that most movements were shipped in tins, and only a relative handful were cased in these "salesmans cases" (assuming this is the same as a "glass back display case").

Why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of fitting an unsold movement into a "glass back display case" when it would be cheaper to ship them in simple tins, and the movement would be re-cased by a jeweler for a customer?


Please pardon me if I've misinterpreted your previous post.

Brad Jacobs

[Jon Hanson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Watch Carefully:
Jon,
Are you saying that every movement shipped from a factory to a middle man or jeweler was encased in a "glass back display case" as defined above? NO I DID NOT SAY THAT__PLEASE REREAD MY ORIGINAL POST!

I must respectfully disagree. If that were true, then how can we explain the profusion of movement tins and other shipping/storage containiners seen at Marts and on eBay?

It seems to me that most movements were shipped in tins, and only a relative handful were cased in these "salesmans cases" (assuming this is the same as a "glass back display case").

Why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of fitting an unsold movement into a "glass back display case" when it would be cheaper to ship them in simple tins, and the movement would be re-cased by a jeweler for a customer? NOT NEC CHEAPER


Please pardon me if I've misinterpreted your previous post.

Brad Jacobs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Jon Hanson]

Hi, yes you have misunderstood. GBs were just ONE WAY of housing mov'ts.

Ever see the "tons of tins" by Elgin, Waltham, and Illinois? Many of these had GLASS BACK and PENDANT and WINDLESS GB cases contained in them!

Cheap companies, such as NYS, used cardboard containers to house movements. Waltham also made "fancy" boxes with metal and GB cointainers within!

If anyone cares I can scan dozens and dozens of different types and styles of mov't containers!

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Jon Hanson]

cases

"There are the following types of display or glass back cases:

1. glass back display cases, made in most sizes, occasionally signed (Hamilton, Illinois, Waltham, Dueber), mostly plain. These come (mostly) snap bezel & back or hinged. Quick release screw B & B are rare. Watch companies delivered their movements to the jeweler or jobber in these. Hamilton reportedly gave a 50 cent buy back for re-use of these. These are the best for lonely an uncased movements: they provide the collector an alternative to a. case switching (and molesting nice original commoner watches used for recasing), b. an opportunity to view scarce or rare mov'ts, c. are infinitely more attractive than, say, a worn out, brassy GF case, d. require less care than a silveroid that easily tarnishes, and e. provide protection for that stored, scarce movement.

2. glass (on both sides) movement containers. Also used for shipping and packaging that rare mov't; most common are pendantless, although some have the crown and stem but no bow. These are usually squarish and lie flat--most common are tha American Watch Co., Elgin National Watch Co. Illinois Watch Co., and less common others, e.g. South Bend, Ball, etc. These came in metal slip rectangular (or square) containers (Waltham). Elgin made brassy ones that were round and occsionally had glass on one side that fitted into another contsainer.

3. exhibition backs: these were cases with(out)curvettes (dust covers) in addition to either a hinged or snap bezel with glass to view (and protect) the movement. These are highly sought after by collectors, esp. sharp original examples of SW early Howards, certain 18s Illinois (and other) companies, and certain 16s (Elgin convert, and several rarer originally cased watches).

4. Yes, PG, made up various 16 and 18s repro GB display cases during the early 1980s. These were made to look like RR cases and came in good GF (16s) and RGP (18s), plus a few in gold. Easily reproduced from original dies, he used simply 2 bezels and a frame for form this "high" quality glass back.

5. case molestation: the dealers are now (and have been for about 8 years) cutting out silveroids and making GB display cases. (They esp like to use swingrings as these are dredded by most serious collectors!) Others have used damaged silver cases to do the same thing. Yet, still others use two bezels and thus "manufacture" glass backs reasonably and quickly.

Hope this quick overview helps.

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Jon Hanson]

The cold hard facts are that a large percentage of collectors and dealers alike are SWITCHING mov'tS out of "bad" (WORN OUT, DAMAGED OR PLAIN) cases and upgrading (or creating) 2003 versions of better conditioned grade watches (I am sorry to say). Glass backs are no different.

How to detect switches? Easy-do the factory tags have matching serial numbers? Are there other case screw marks? Does the movement brand match the GB case signature of recognized style?

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[Jon Hanson]

are plentiful and popular. A lot of people like them! THERE IS A GREAT DEMAND; in fact one well knowN fleabay dealer actually has a unique "Hamilton store!"

Glass back display cases are cheaper than, say, sharp or mint OF or H cases!!!

THESE ARE GREAT FOR YOUR FAVORITE MOVEMENTS FOR ALL THE REASONS I STATED ABOVE!

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

[This message was edited by Jon Hanson on June 20, 2003 at 11:31.]

[Tom McIntyre]

Like Jon says, putting a good loose movement in a GBDC is a good thing.

In some instances valuable movements have been removed from valuable cases to allow the two parts to be sold separately and potentially improve profits.

This practice is thoroughly condemned by all serious collectors, but it is a fact of life.

Tom McIntyre
2nd VP Elect
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[lak611]

The cold hard facts are that a large percentage of collectors and dealers alike are SWITCHING mov'tS out of "bad" (WORN OUT, DAMAGED OR PLAIN) cases and upgrading (or creating) 2003 versions of better conditioned grade watches (I am sorry to say). Glass backs are no different.

How to detect switches? Easy-do the factory tags have matching serial numbers? Are there other case screw marks? Does the movement brand match the GB case signature of recognized style?

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
Founder and President chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club
What is the best way to tell if there was a switch if I am just looking at the pictures on a certain well known internet auction site?


Laura

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Laura -

To be realistic, I think most glassback cased watches you will see (especially on the well known auction site) are relatively recent marriages. Probably the fairest way to evaluate these is to judge the fair value of the movement/dial, and then to allow for the additional value of the glassback case.

But to train your eye, here are ways to spot evidence of a switch on these ...

First up you will want to look for extra marks around the inner rear lip of the case that have been left by another movement's casescrews. Different makers (i.e. Hamilton, Elgin, Illinois, etc.) will have different casescrew positions, but sometimes even different models from the same maker will have different casescrew positions, so if a case has held one of these movements there will often be a telltale mark from the former occupant's casescrews.

Along these same lines, if you see evidence of recent polishing along the inner rear lip this can be a sign that someone has tried to remove another movement's casescrew marks. Obviously this one can be tough to judge from a photo especially if the picture quality isn't the best.

Another way to recognize a switch is if the case style does not match to the timeframe of the movement.

Another way to recognize a switch is if the movement was only originally sold only in a specific case style or only as a factory cased watch, but is now in a glassback.

Fred

p.s. Nice find of a terrific older post, glad to see you are reading and making use of the board archives!!!

[terry hall]

fred... can we plug it in at the end of the two pinned threads?:?|

[lak611]

Hi Laura -

To be realistic, I think most glassback cased watches you will see (especially on the well known auction site) are relatively recent marriages. Probably the fairest way to evaluate these is to judge the fair value of the movement/dial, and then to allow for the additional value of the glassback case.

But to train your eye, here are ways to spot evidence of a switch on these ...

First up you will want to look for extra marks around the inner rear lip of the case that have been left by another movement's casescrews. Different makers (i.e. Hamilton, Elgin, Illinois, etc.) will have different casescrew positions, but sometimes even different models from the same maker will have different casescrew positions, so if a case has held one of these movements there will often be a telltale mark from the former occupant's casescrews.

Along these same lines, if you see evidence of recent polishing along the inner rear lip this can be a sign that someone has tried to remove another movement's casescrew marks. Obviously this one can be tough to judge from a photo especially if the picture quality isn't the best.

Another way to recognize a switch is if the case style does not match to the timeframe of the movement.

Another way to recognize a switch is if the movement was only originally sold only in a specific case style or only as a factory cased watch, but is now in a glassback.

Fred

p.s. Nice find of a terrific older post, glad to see you are reading and making use of the board archives!!!
Thanks, Fred. That helps a lot. If i find a decent movement that is not in its original case, is it worthwhile to get it? I know that many of the watches were not factory cased anyway. The case and the movement were usually put together by a jeweler. So if the movement was nice, could I just look for a case that is nice and then match up the appropriate movement and case, like they did back in the day?

Laura

[Fred Hansen]

Terry - I'd like to keep those two threads as Hamilton and Illinois specific ... but this is a great thread and I have it in my favorites menu with a lot of other good ones, and am planning to make some more index threads out of these and this thread will be included.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

If i find a decent movement that is not in its original case, is it worthwhile to get it?

I'd say definitely! Nice original watches are terrific, and some watches in my collection I have no reason to believe they aren't all original, but plenty of others I have found that were uncased or recased when they came to me. The important thing though in judging these for purchase is to understand values, and for some watches the original case is a very big factor in the value of the watch.

I know that many of the watches were not factory cased anyway. The case and the movement were usually put together by a jeweler. So if the movement was nice, could I just look for a case that is nice and then match up the appropriate movement and case, like they did back in the day?

Yes. But one of the focuses of this thread is that the glassback case makes an excellent choice for many of these watches and is a nice way to show the movement. This is a much less destructive way to house a movement than it is to sacrifice a nice apparently original watch just to use its case, but unfortunately in this hobby many nice watches end up broken apart for this reason.

Fred