Need info on history

[bobby j]

I have an old gold pocket watch that has Mermod.Jaccard & King on the face and Dueber warranted 20yrs and serial no. 7433431 on all the case pieces (frame, front, back and inside mech. cover). the time peice itself says Constant St. Loius USA 15 jewels #13489061. Any information as to when it was made and if the case is filled gold or what or whatever else?

Thanks
Bob

[bobby j]

I have an old gold pocket watch that has Mermod.Jaccard & King on the face and Dueber warranted 20yrs and serial no. 7433431 on all the case pieces (frame, front, back and inside mech. cover). the time peice itself says Constant St. Loius USA 15 jewels #13489061. Any information as to when it was made and if the case is filled gold or what or whatever else?

Thanks
Bob

[Tom McIntyre]

The 20 years on the case means it is gold filled. I think the watch is by Hamilton and the serial number can be found in the Hamilton charts but there are real experts here on that topic.

[Kent]

Hi Bob:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

Mermod & Jaccard and Mermod,Jaccard & King had a number of watches made with their names on them by a variety of different manufacturers, including Swiss companies, see Example (http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1638427/42543/user_42543/T0_42543_1638427.jpg). Such watches are call contract or private label watches. These were related, well-known, St. Louis firms and you should be able to find out more about them with a google search.

Just about all the watch companies, including the Swiss firms, would mark both the watch movements and/or the dials in just about any manner for any customer who wished to pay for the service. I don't have any exact references for the costs, but I've heard (read?) that, for some companies, if five or more watches were ordered, there was no charge for marking the movements. Specially marked dials were said to cost 25 or 50 cents each. Some watch manufacturers were more liberal. Private label watches were contracted for by a large range of companies, from Sears, Roebuck down to the smaller jewelers in the little towns.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

It would be helpful if you could post a picture of the movement (the "works"), the clearer and sharper, the better, other pictures will help a little, but this is the most important. We may be able to identify it by the shape of the plates.

Currently, Tom Chaudoir, the NAWCC Message Board Administrator, is recommending that those who do not have web space in which to post pictures register for a free account at flickr.com (http://flickr.com/register.gne). This may now open a Yahoo page, but it will still let you register to post pictures. Their menu-driven procedure for loading pictures is about as easy as it gets. After you enlarge the picture, using flickr's magnifying glass icon (the magnifying glass icon appears in a toolbar above the loaded & saved picture once you've clicked on the picture), scroll down below the picture to find the field labeled "1. Grab the photo's URL:" The link in that field is the one to post on the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board. Vic Rose has posted an excellent old ref::Description on How to Post a Picture on the NAWCC Clock Message Board, which of course also works on for posting a picture on the pocket watch message board.

If you have a problem posting the picture(s), you can attach it (them) to an e-mail to me (you can get my email address by clicking on my name in the upper left-hand corner of this post and viewing my Public Profile) and I'll post it (them) for you.

Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.

The history of The Dueber-Hampden Watch Co. is told in "From Springfield To Moscow: The Complete Dueber-Hampden Story" by James W. Gibbs. It was originally published in 1954 and was enlarged as a supplement to the Bulletin of the National Assoc. of Watch and Clock Collectors in 1986 (it may still be available - see the NAWCC Gift Shop (http://www.nawcc.org/giftshop/americart/bk_watch.htm) also, this should be available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)). Briefly, John C. Dueber (whose 1907 Obituary (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/celebrated.html) can be viewed on Greg Frauenhoff's website) established a watch case company in Newport, KY in the late 1870's. In the mid-to-late 1880's he purchased a controlling interest in the Hampden Watch Co. of Springfield, MA. In 1888-1889, both operations were moved to a dual, attached set of factory buildings in Canton, OH (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/1889_Aug_Dueber_Factory_LR.jpg). The Dueber Watch Case Manufacturing Co. was a separate company from the Hampden Watch Co., although the ads used the Dueber-Hampden name and that name was (and still is) in common usage, and they were housed in adjacent buildings. It stayed that way until about 1925 when the companies were merged. Hampden movements were frequently offered factory fitted into Dueber cases, such as seen in an 1908 Ad (http://photos23.flickr.com/29600516_67d816aa49_o.jpg). The companies continued in business, producing both watches and cases until falling sales in the mid-1920's led to receivership in 1927. The manufacturing equipment, parts on hand and work in progress were sold to Russia. Operations ceased in 1930 when the machinery was shipped to Russia. It is believed that all factory records either went with the equipment, or were destroyed, and there are no surviving records from which to match serial numbers of watches, or cases, against models and grades.

Dueber ads from the years 1891 and 1908 can be seen at:
elginwatches.org/scans/misc_ads/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

The fact that the case is marked "warranted 20yrs" indicates that it is gold filled.

Good luck,

[RON in PA]

I doubt that with a serial number above 13 million it's a Hamilton, way too high.

[John F]

Based on the serial number and markings, I think it's a 1907 Elgin - I have recorded one a little earlier in this same run, marked the same way: SN 13489020. As Kent explained, it's a private label and was done for Mermod Jaccard of St. Louis, which was a large and well-known firm. I seem to recall reading somewhere that "Constant" was actually Jaccard's middle name (a version of "Constantine") - I've always thought that was a pretty cool name to advertise the reliability of a watch.

[Tom McIntyre]

13489061
Oops! :redface: I should have noticed the serial number was too large. If it is an Elgin, it is a grade grade 312 from 1907. Here is the entry from Wayne Schlitt's Elgin site.

Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
13489061 13489001 1000 1907 312 16s h3n6p 15j e


grade total runs first yr last yr class size code jewels Adj/name
----- ----- ----- -------- ------- ----- ---- ------ ------ ----------
312 366000 233 1904 1927 109 16s h3n6p 15j


Class 109: 16s HC 3/4 pend model 6
290 564000 made 7j
292 336000 made 7j gilded
299 35000 made 15j
312 366000 made 15j
365 24000 made 15j gilded
386 113700 made 17j

[Wes]

Hey Tom,
"It" happens! :cool:


Bobby,
Welcome to the NAWCC Message Board!
If it is American, I think it only leaves Elgin and Waltham to have serial numbers in the 13 million range. According to the Waltham database, if it were a Waltham it would be a 7 jewel size 12.
Since it says 15 jewels on it, and the Elgin database shows that SN having 15 jewels, I would say that it was probably made by Elgin as well. That is, if it is indeed American.
With a photo of the movement we could tell with 100% certainty that is was in fact an Elgin.

[Kent]

Here are the pictures of Bob's watch:

Case (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/16S_15J_MJK_Constant_13489061_C_Rob.jpg)
Dial (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/16S_15J_MJK_Constant_13489061_D_Rob.jpg)
Movement (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/16S_15J_MJK_Constant_13489061_M_Rob.jpg)

As the guys above guessed from the serial number, it can clearly seen to be an Elgin model 6. Notice that although the bezel has a lever slot, there is no lever and the movement is thus pendant-set.

Basic information about an Elgin watch, including its approximate date of manufacture, can be obtained by using the serial number on the movement (the "works"), not the case, to look the watch up on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin watch web site at <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.org</span>. Choose "Elgin Databases" on the left-hand side of the page and then "Serial Number Lookup." Be sure to type in the serial number without any spaces or commas. If you enter a space and then "v=13" after the serial number, notes on surviving examples will be included in the ensuing report. The basic information is what Tom posted above. The extended examples were as reported to Wayne, or as he found them on them internet. After you look up your watch, choose "Watch Codes" from the menu in the left-hand side of the page, that's where the abbreviations are explained.

There is a lot of other good information on the site on Elgin watches and on pocket watches in general. Its well worth a couple of hours to go through different sections.

It should be noted that the regulator arm has been moved off of the regulating nut. Apparently, somebody who didn't understand how to set the regulator has been fooling with it. If the watch is going to be run any amount, it ought to be serviced by a competent watchmaker. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
<span class="ev_code_brown">www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html</span>
<span class="ev_code_blue">To view, go to the </span><span class="ev_code_brown">Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page</span> <span class="ev_code_blue">at</span> <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.org</span>, <span class="ev_code_blue">then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on </span>'Go'.

Good luck,

[bobby j]

Wow, you guys are good and fast. I really do appreciate all the input I have received so far. I think with the info you have given me I'll have a good time searching out the rest myself. If I have any future questions I'll be back.
Thanks So Much!

Bob

[Masaoud]

Dear Sir,

I have square shped silver pocket watch with a white INVICTA dial. Can anyone tell me the deatils about this watch?

Regards,
Masaoud.

[Masaoud]

Masaoud has the image uploaded: INVICTA.

http://static.flickr.com/104/261281254_9a4aff2a8f.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/90/261281251_e243b5a44f.jpg