Are there any 21 jewel Grade 108 Elgins?

[John F]

I'm looking at an Elgin that's in an online auction, SN 4972xxx, which should be a 16s grade 108. If I'm reading the records correctly, all grade 108's are 15 jewels - however, this one is marked "21 jewels" on the barrel bridge. My first thought was that one of the bridges had been switched at some point (i.e., the serial number is from a grade 108, or the barrel bridge is from another watch entirely). On closer inspection, the style of the lettering for "21 jewels" is somewhat different than that on the rest of the movement. It also seems somewhat out of place and is all in a straight line (as opposed to a slight arc to match the curve of the movement), which makes me think that perhaps the bridge hasn't been switched at all, and that the "21 jewels" marking is a later addition. Next thought: a "lunch bucket" special by a factory worker, or (worse) an intent to deceive by someone at some point in this watch's history? Were 108's ever upgraded by the factory (though from 15 to 21 jewels seems like a bit of a stretch)?

I can get a picture, but unfortunately don't have posting capacity.

Thanks,
John

[John F]

I'm looking at an Elgin that's in an online auction, SN 4972xxx, which should be a 16s grade 108. If I'm reading the records correctly, all grade 108's are 15 jewels - however, this one is marked "21 jewels" on the barrel bridge. My first thought was that one of the bridges had been switched at some point (i.e., the serial number is from a grade 108, or the barrel bridge is from another watch entirely). On closer inspection, the style of the lettering for "21 jewels" is somewhat different than that on the rest of the movement. It also seems somewhat out of place and is all in a straight line (as opposed to a slight arc to match the curve of the movement), which makes me think that perhaps the bridge hasn't been switched at all, and that the "21 jewels" marking is a later addition. Next thought: a "lunch bucket" special by a factory worker, or (worse) an intent to deceive by someone at some point in this watch's history? Were 108's ever upgraded by the factory (though from 15 to 21 jewels seems like a bit of a stretch)?

I can get a picture, but unfortunately don't have posting capacity.

Thanks,
John

[Barry G]

John:

Here's a link to the picture used in the auction:
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Feb/2002294832579006453181.jpg

From the picture, it is clear that this watch does NOT have 21 jewels, regardless of what is marked on the movement. If you look, you can see that the center wheel is not jeweled, meaning the watch has 15 jewels at most.

The style of the lettering on the "21 Jewels" marking looks so radically different that I would assume it to be a later addition meant for the sole purpose of deceiving. Most 15 jewel watches from this time period weren't marked with the jewel count, so whoever did this wouldn't have even needed to alter the existing markings, just add a new one.

Buyer beware!

Barry

------------------
My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[John F]

Thanks, Barry! I should have noticed the lack of a center wheel jewel - in fact, I'm a little embarrassed to have missed it :redface: !

John

[Junkhunter]

I would like to add that I have never seen a legit 21 jewel watch by any maker that was supplied with only a plain regulator.
Looks to me like someone got a little carried away with a punch set...

[Junkhunter]

Oops...

Wayne you are absolutly right. I looked at the picture so quickly that I missed the detail. I don't have an Elgin with that type of regulator. Where is the spring that keeps the regulator arm against the adjusting screw? Is it hidden under the balance cock? This seems to be an interesting watch, with enough merit to stand on its own. It is a shame the seller chooses to represent it the way he/she does.

Alan

[John F]

I've emailed the seller to let him/her know about this and that the watch may not be 21 jewels as marked (and as described). It's certainly possible that this happened to the watch before this seller obtained it, and he/she is unaware of it. If I get a response, I'll pass it along.

John

[Barry G]

John: Hmmmmmm.... Call me a cynic, but I'll bet you a shiny nickel that if you get a response at all it will be along the lines of "I never stated that the watch actually HAS 21 jewels, only that it is MARKED '21 Jewels' on the movement."

Barry

------------------
My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[John F]

Barry,

OK, you're a cynic! But so far it looks like you're right, too -- 3 days since I emailed the seller, and no answer and no change to the listing. *Sigh*

I guess I owe you a shiny nickel...

John

[Barry G]

Just make sure it's a real shiny one so I can say it's "silver" [colored] and resell it on eBay for $5.00....

:wink:

Barry

------------------
My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)