My lantern pinion repair

[bangster]

Just finished my first try at repairing a lantern pinion, following advice from various folks on this here forum, plus books. To get the old trundles out i used a proper sized drill bit in a pin vise, to open up the holes, then pushed the trundles out with needlenose plars. To cut the new ones, I first tried a Dremel cutoff disk chucked in the lathe, but all it did was make a mess. Finally just used a pair of end nippers to cut them off. Faced the ends on a Dremel stone in the lathe, and stuck them into the collets or shrouds or whatever they're called. Pulled them down tight into the blind holes in the bottom whatchama-collet with the needlenosers.

Tried to peen the holes, per several people's advice. On the first whack, all it did was move the top whatchama-collet down on the arbor, so the ends of the trundles were almost sticking out. That wouldn't do, obviously, so I turned to Eckmill's method. Flattened out a hand washer. Cut three teensy pieces of Tix solder and put them on top of the top collet. Slathered them with flux, put the washer on top of them, and hit it with a mini-torch. In a few seconds, everything nicely soldered. THOSE trundles ain't gonna come out. Tix solder is wonderful stuff. Chucked up the arbor in the lathe, turned the washer down even with the collet. All done, and it works perfectly.

Experiment a success, and I shall nevermore have any hestitation about lantern pinions. Hey, even a newbie can fix 'em.

bangster
advancing newbie

[bangster]

Just finished my first try at repairing a lantern pinion, following advice from various folks on this here forum, plus books. To get the old trundles out i used a proper sized drill bit in a pin vise, to open up the holes, then pushed the trundles out with needlenose plars. To cut the new ones, I first tried a Dremel cutoff disk chucked in the lathe, but all it did was make a mess. Finally just used a pair of end nippers to cut them off. Faced the ends on a Dremel stone in the lathe, and stuck them into the collets or shrouds or whatever they're called. Pulled them down tight into the blind holes in the bottom whatchama-collet with the needlenosers.

Tried to peen the holes, per several people's advice. On the first whack, all it did was move the top whatchama-collet down on the arbor, so the ends of the trundles were almost sticking out. That wouldn't do, obviously, so I turned to Eckmill's method. Flattened out a hand washer. Cut three teensy pieces of Tix solder and put them on top of the top collet. Slathered them with flux, put the washer on top of them, and hit it with a mini-torch. In a few seconds, everything nicely soldered. THOSE trundles ain't gonna come out. Tix solder is wonderful stuff. Chucked up the arbor in the lathe, turned the washer down even with the collet. All done, and it works perfectly.

Experiment a success, and I shall nevermore have any hestitation about lantern pinions. Hey, even a newbie can fix 'em.

bangster
advancing newbie

[RobertG]

Bangster:

Great job! Feels good, huh.

On my first try at a lantern pinion, I removed the top shroud. That made reassembly much trickier. Your way sounds simpler.

RobertG

[bcaclock]

Hi, clear E-Poxy works good and it is nearly invisible.
Bob

[Donald P Bellamy]

If you can make out what is in the picture it does work. It is a piece of angle 2x2 with several slots of different widths and also 2 steel rods mounted on bottom to allow you to mount in vise which will keep angle above vise to allow different length pinions with diffetrent size gears, ect. Mount in vise, slide the pinion along slot and take a small pointed punch and ping away, its easy and fast and when done its like it was done long ago and will allow the next person fifty years from now to replace the pins the way you did. I think there is a fine line between repair and restore. Maybe this will help.
Don



http://static.flickr.com/28/45149152_72ab8372bf.jpg

[RJSoftware]

Just plain solder works too.

Thing about solder is that when filed smooth it's pretty hard to detect as well. And is much more solid than epoxy.

I would think epoxy is bound to give due to stresses later on.

RJ

[Donald P Bellamy]

not much stress outward on the leaves of the lantern pinion. I like the idea that the leaves(pins) can roll as the gears mesh which spreads the wear around the whole pin. Nevertheless, what works for you stick with it.
Don

[RJSoftware]

Donald;

Ok, never considerd that. So if I glue them after glue dries maybe I can break any sticking by rolling them maybe with needle nose? Or do you peen them?

[Tunderer]

There is no fun like trying to repair a botched lantern pinion job! In my book glue or solder is a botch job of out standing ignorance!

The solder flux will attack the wire and cause a mess unless every bit is washed away. There is no need to solder or glue the wires in place if the wires are cut to the correct length. simply take a piece of larger diameter wire and grind a flat in each side similar to a fine screwdriver bit. Leave a flat as you want to push the metal not cut it. Stick the wire in a pin vise and press the tool into the hole. The tool should raise a burr on each side of the hole. All you need is a burr large enough to hold the wire in place. It doesn't take much. If you are worried about displacing the hub as you push set the hub on a crowsfoot. I have two tools. One I use to seat the individual wires the second locks them in place. the whole process takes only a few minutes. I cut wires with a dremal cutoff wheel using a jig that is nothing more then a modified pin vise on a hinge. They come out cut square and clean enough to be pushed in the hole without deburring.

[RobertG]

Tunderer:

I would very much like to see photos of your three tools, especially the cut off tool jig. Could you post photos for us, please?

RobertG

[RobertG]

Don B.:

If you could post photos of the angle tool mounted in a vice and with a pinion in place, as it would be used, it would be very much appreciated.

I am having trouble visualizing how it fits into the angle piece.

Thank you.


RobertG

[bangster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tunderer:
There is no fun like trying to repair a botched lantern pinion job! In my book glue or solder is a botch job of out standing ignorance!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, well Eckmill says he was taught that method, presumably by an experienced clocker, rather than an outstanding ignoramus, so I guess opinions differ on the matter of solder. A lot like ammoniated cleaners, I guess.

bangster

[David Robertson]

Bangster,

There may be debate on whether solder is good to use.. but there is NO DEBATE over whether acid flux will rust/corrode steel parts. If it is not removed or neutralized.. it will rust. It is very hard to remove or neutralize in the small places where the trundles go in the holes in the shroud.

Just because solder works doesn't mean it is a good repair. It will be much harder for someone to fix if it needs doing again and frankly... it looks very amateurish.. If someone is unwilling or unable to learn how to properly secure lantern pinions in a shroud (it is not that difficult), then I would vote for superglue as less offensive than solder. It is invisible and it is easier to remove and it doesn't leave that permanent silver residue that solder does which is almost impossible to completely remove. Even less offensive than superglue is the installation of a thin brass disk pressed (not glued or soldered) tight against the end of the shrouds where the trundles have been removed.

Obviously just my opinion... but I hope you will give it some thought. I admit to being a stickler for putting clocks back the way they were originally, within reason. I see a proper lantern pinion as very reasonable...

David

[dave west clocks]

That's not the way to do it!what a mess!poor clock!!!

[bangster]

Originally posted by dave west clocks:
That's not the way to do it!what a mess!poor clock!!!

Okay, take it up with Eckmill. I thought I was following good advice (see old ref::here ). Apparently you disagree. (And just by the way; it didn't look like a mess; looked perfectly clean...except, I suppose to solder-o-phobes.)

bangster

[Robert M.]

Why don't we all remember that the purpose of these posts are to provide an educational experience for the clock lovers who view this site and not an exercise in horological flogging.
Is soldering a Lantern Pinion an accepted practice among experienced clock repair people?Of course not but who among us hasn't done an unorthodox repair early in our clock repair careers.I know damn well I have and I'd venture to say so have the rest of you.I certainly have acquired a higher level of skill since those days but I'll tell you they were my clocks and not a customers and in lieu of the proper repair procedures I thought I was doing the right thing and it was certainly better than what existed prior to my amateurish attempts at clock repair.We've all got to start somewhere.
I guess what I'm saying is lets lighten up on the scolding and stick to educating our younger budding clocksmiths.There's nothing to be served by this behavior.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

[David Robertson]

Bob... If I am the person to whom you attribute the "scolding".. then please allow me to comment..

I would hope the purpose of this board is to ACCELERATE the transition from improper techniques to proper ones... not to condone them just because "we all did it when we first started".

If I came across as "scolding"... I appologize. That was not my intention.

I was hoping to convey the idea that there ARE some things potentially wrong with soldering lantern pinions besides personal preference (i.e corrosion and future repairability) AND that there are better ways to do a pinion repair than soldering if you can't or won't do it by staking the shroud (i.e. superglue and keeper disk).

I hope there is some value in this information.. if not, then.. sorry.. but I can assure you that scolding was not the primary intent....

I can do a better job of scolding than that!!! :smile:

[harold bain]

Hey, Bang, sorry that everyone is trying to rain on your parade. If you have a scrap movement or gear to practice on, try some of the methods suggested here. David is right about soldering. Soldering has its place, but not with this repair. :wink:
Harold

[bangster]

...And since a lot of Experts here are acting as if I'm some kinda clueless dweeb thrashing around on my own instead of Listening to the Experts on the matter of lantern pinion repair, please check out

[RJSoftware]

David;

I dont mind being corrected. I am a newbie.

Ok, let me see if I can re-interpret so I know I understand your post.

You&gt;&gt;There is no need to solder or glue the wires in place if the wires are cut to the correct length.

Me&gt;&gt;Ok, all ears.

You&gt;&gt;simply take a piece of larger diameter wire and grind a flat in each side similar to a fine screwdriver bit.

&gt;&gt;Me Ok, so I take it that this larger diametor wire is to be used like a tool for this proceedure. We sharpen an end to shape of fine screw driver. Guess I want a little slack when pushing the pins in. Because you say a little larger...

You&gt;&gt;Leave a flat as you want to push the metal not cut it.

&gt;&gt;Me, Ok a flat on end of homemade screw driver. So as to be not too sharp.

You&gt;&gt;Stick the wire in a pin vise and press the tool into the hole.

Me&gt;&gt; Ok, so far. Push all the way to the back?

You&gt;&gt; The tool should raise a burr on each side of the hole.

Me&gt;&gt; Are the burs are formed on outside surface where you stuck tool in?

Are we to push into the hub to make hole a bit larger and form burs pointing outward, correct?

Trying to picture this. If I stab a can of soup with screw driver or slowly plunge the burs go on inside. How does this help?

You&gt;&gt;All you need is a burr large enough to hold the wire in place. It doesn't take much.

Me&gt;&gt; Understood I think. But not sure of which side burs are on. Peening them closed later?

Or is this a friction fit? Counting on burs to hold pins in.

You&gt;&gt;If you are worried about displacing the hub as you push set the hub on a crowsfoot.

Me&gt;&gt; Understood. Crowsfoot stops hub from moving in same direction.

You&gt;&gt;I have two tools. One I use to seat the individual wires the second locks them in place. the whole process takes only a few minutes.

Me&gt;&gt; Ok, lost me. What do you need a seperate tool to seat individual wires. Arn't we doing these one at a time? You make it sound as though your pressing them in all same time...

You&gt;&gt;I cut wires with a dremal cutoff wheel using a jig that is nothing more then a modified pin vise on a hinge.

Me&gt;&gt; Nope definitley lost now. Pin vice on a hinge. What kind of hinge? Definitley lost!!!

You&gt;&gt;They come out cut square and clean enough to be pushed in the hole without deburring.

Me&gt;&gt; Ok maybe pictures would be nice.

Thanks for your efforts though.
I apreciate learning as much as I can.
RJ

[bangster]

There are plenty of ways for Experts to help newbies like me learn the tricks of the craft. "I would have done it this way instead..."; "I don't like solder, because the flux..."; "here's an easier way to do it...". That's friendly and helpful.

But, "In my book glue or solder is a botch job of out standing ignorance! "; or "If someone is unwilling or unable to learn how to properly secure lantern pinions in a shroud..."; and similar remarks, aren't designed to help. They are designed to Make The Speaker Feel Superior, and to Let The Newbie Know That He Is Inferior, and to generate anger rather than thanks. We newbies are still learning, and have lots more to learn. But to call that "out standing [sic] ignorance" is just insulting. And to suggest that I am "unwilling or unable to learn how..." is baseless, uncalled for, false, and annoying.

Up to now I have found the folks on this forum to be friendly, helpful, and understanding of those of us who are out to learn the craft. I think it would behoove everyone to stick with that mode, and avoid snippish or biting or sarcastic responses to our newbie posts.

bangster
advancing newbie

[Robert M.]

Don't lose a minutes sleep over it Bangster,I'm sure all of the folks who posted a reply to your post surely meant to help you.Perhaps the phrasing could have been a bit gentler but all that being said I personally believe everyones heart was in the right place.The folks who respond to the various questions posted on here have basically one intention,that is,to enhance the skills of the people who ask the various clock questions and they do a commendable job of it.
Go ahead and keep posting your experiences and questions.Please don't let one minor incident sour your feelings about this board.Personally I think all your questions are basically what all budding clocksmiths are curious about and if someone doesn't ask them its one more lesson that goes untaught.I know I enjoy reading them.
Thank you.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

[Robert M.]

Thank you Phil.....
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

[Veritas]

Thanks Bob F, my sentiments too.The first lantern pinion i repaired i used red loctite, can be removed.
Since then if another lantern pinion repair job comes up i would go with making a small burr to hold the pins in.I also used a sewing needle on my first one, thinking it is hard and polished should last a long time.
Great board here and all who post here.
Keep up the good work guys and gals.

[Scottie-TX]

O.K. BONG. We commiserate. I think your wounds will heal quickly and I doubt rehab will be necessary. DR has been thrashed, caned, castigated, and diminished to microcosmic detritus in your honor. C'mon BONG. Quit whimperin' an' let DR off th' ropes. (edited "comiserate" to conform with the high spelling and grammar standard expectations commensurate to the topics board)

[bcaclock]

Hi Y'all, well I have been told but I am certainly not a newby and I have tried many ways of repairing lantern pinions and in many cases I believe Epoxy is superior to other methods especially when the Peening method won't work. I don't like solder on them but if there is not sufficient metal or it is too hard to move I feel the use of epoxy is better than others. Those of us who make a living at clock repair must use the best methods at hand for each repair. It is easy to say I like to keep everything original but it is not always the best way. I feel making a clock work is our first priority without doing irrepable harm.
Bob

[neighmond]

All the time I've been a watchmaker I came to learn that real idiots and ignorami won't come and ask for help-they'll just blunder on in their foolishness till someone looses an eye.

Just curious, when epoxy or solder is used on a lantern pinion bobbin how are the trundles to turn in their sockets?

Here is a slick trick:

We all see the bronze or brass bushing stock that is sold by the assortment, right? Well, if the bobbin turns up not to hold the wire trundles for one reason or another, we select a piece that'll cover the holes, chuck it up, turn off a half millimeter, and ream the hole just under the arbor size. Then we stake it on, and presto! A cap to hold the trundles in!

Photos available for the asking.

Also, you can make a drill bit that goes in a drill press that can drill washers from flat stock.

Chaz.