south bend studebaker

[rubyarose]

I am new to this fourm, i am grateful for finding it. I have this pocketwatch that a customer is very interested in. I am having a hard time finding any info on this one. Here is a picture, I am hoping someone here can help. Thank you in advance. Ruby http://rubyarose.eaph.com/viewalbum.cgi?pocketwatch

[rubyarose]

I am new to this fourm, i am grateful for finding it. I have this pocketwatch that a customer is very interested in. I am having a hard time finding any info on this one. Here is a picture, I am hoping someone here can help. Thank you in advance. Ruby http://rubyarose.eaph.com/viewalbum.cgi?pocketwatch

[Kent]

Hi: Ruby:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

You have a very nice and collectable watch there. It is an 18-size, railroad grade watch, a grade No. 329 if its 21-jewels, No. 323 if 17-jewels. According to “The South Bend Watch Co. - South Bend, Indiana - A Complete Listing of Serial / Grade Numbers from Beginning to End," Lyle & Donna Stratton, Longmont, CO, 1999, total production of the grade No. 323 is 4,400, and of the No. 329 3,000.

Please let us know the serial number.

Edited to correct grade number.

Thanks,

[rubyarose]

Hi Kent. Thank you so much for the information. The serial number is 533808. Model 323

[Kent]

Hi Ruby:

Thanks for the serial number. "The Studebaker" grades No. 323 and 329 were Introduced in 1910 (http://photos26.flickr.com/36350009_5daae48f2c_o.jpg). You can see South Bend's 5-year guarantee and learn more about railroad time service, time inspection and railroad standard watches, in the online article ”Just What Is A Railroad Watch?” On the Pocket Horology, NAWCC Chapter 174 Website (http://www.pockethorology.org/).

Good luck,

[Whit Joyner]

Is the serial nos./dates table in Shugart for South Bends that far off? :rolleyes:

They show Studebaker no. 533808 (and my #521870) as made in 1908. I guess I need to buy some more books.

Whit

[Kent]

Whit:

The above mentioned book also shows 510,000 - 560,00 to be made in the 1908 - 1909 timeframe. Nevertheless, the Ad Linked to Above (http://photos26.flickr.com/36350009_5daae48f2c_o.jpg) first appeared on June 1, 1910. Also, the ads for the Polaris (518,001) appeared in the Fall of 1909.

[rubyarose]

Is it possible that the WERE made in 1908 or 1909 and finally INTRODUCED in 1910?

[Jon Hanson]

what is a grade 339?

[Kent]

A typo - it should have read No. 329. Thanks for catching the error, its been fixed now.

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is it possible that the WERE made in 1908 or 1909 and finally INTRODUCED in 1910? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. It has been frequently pointed out that watch movements could take from nine to eighteen months to build and finish. This especially applies to the high grade watches such as "The Studebaker" grades. The serial numbers could very well have been assigned, and manufacturing started, in 1908 or 1909.

It should also be noted that we commonly accept that serial number verses date tables are only approximate and may easily be off by two or more years. The South Bend table in the “Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 24,” by C. Shugart, T. Engle and R. Gilbert (which was mentioned by Whit, above) specifically says "<span class="ev_code_blue">The above list is provided for determining the APPROXIMATE aga of your watch.</span>" The table in “The South Bend Watch Co. - South Bend, Indiana - A Complete Listing of Serial / Grade Numbers from Beginning to End," by Lyle & Donna Stratton (that I quoted from above) is entitled "<span class="ev_code_blue">Estimated Serial Numbers and Production Dates</span>."

The process of finishing a watch movement is a long and labor-intensive procedure. It's the polishing of the interacting parts and the adjusting of the mechanism to obtain the specified timekeeping quality. If sales are slow, the rough movements aren't finished until they're needed. The rough movements may sit around in inventory for years before being withdrawn from stock and sent to the finishing room.

When the needed quantity of movements were withdrawn, it was not necessarily done in serial number order. Thus, out of a run of five hundred movements in inventory, if twenty-five are pulled to be finished, their serial numbers may be scattered across the entire range. So, in examining the production records of the Hamilton Watch Co., it isn't unusual to see two movements having adjacent serial numbers that are finished a year apart.

[fkusumot]

Kent,

The 323, 329 and Polaris were all available in 1909 according to the South Bend Catalog of that same year.

Best,

Frank

[Kent]

Frank:

That's interesting information. Thanks,

[rubyarose]

Hi all, Thanks for all of the useful information, great forum, I have two more questions. When I tried to change the time on this pocket watch, I pulled up on the stem until it clicked and then turned it thinking that was how to change the time. The first time I attempted this there was a lot of tension. I waited 24 hours and tried again, there was not nearly the amount of tension, but I was not able to move the hands. Is there another way to change the time on this pocket watch. Another question I have is about the value? Is it appropriate to ask questions about values on this board. Thank you all again for your knowledge and input. Ruby

[Kent]

Ruby:

To meet the post 1906-1908 railroad watch requirements, the watch is lever-set. Lever-set means that you have to pull out a lever to allow the crown (winding knob) to engage the hands to set them. Starting just around 1906-1908, it was generally required that watches used in railroad time service be lever-set. This was to prevent the inadvertent changing of the time while winding a watch. On an open-face watch, the lever is located under the bezel (the metal ring that holds the crystal). Typically, for open-face watches, the lever is at 6 minutes for a 16-size watch and 11 minutes for an 18-size watch. The bezel may screw off to expose the lever. Or, if the case has hinges, there should be a raised lip, just clockwise of the pendant, with which to pry the bezel open on its hinge. For most hunting-case watches, the lever protrudes from the bezel at 21 minutes for a 16-size watch and 27 minutes for an 18-size watch. To set the time, the lever is pulled out, parallel to the surface of the dial. Usually, people hold the watch in their left hand and use their right thumbnail to catch the lever's little tab and pull it out. Be careful not to catch the edge of the dial with your thumbnail, dials get chipped that way.

Also, Pocketwatcher's website has instructions for Setting A Lever Set Watch (http://pocketwatcher.zoovy.com/category/watch_information.settingaleversetwatch/).

As it says in the upper left-hand corner of this page, we don’t provide timepiece values. However, knowing the proper description of your watch (18-size, 17-jewel, South Bend No. 323, "The Studebaker" in a gold-filled, screw back & bezel case), by using a Google Search (http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en) you should be able to find similar watches offered by internet dealers, or on eBay, and see what they are selling for. Alternately, check the value in the "Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 25," C. Shugart, T. Engle and R. Gilbert, Cooksey Shugart Publications, Cleveland, TN, 2005. A new edition comes out each year in February. The book is available at libraries, from most major booksellers and online at the NAWCC Gift Shop (http://www.nawcc.org/giftshop/americart/bk_watch.htm). The No 24 (the 2004) edition is shown, but contact them and ask for No. 25. Condition matters!

Good luck,

[rubyarose]

Kent, I had not noticed the forum polices in the upper left corner,and I did do a quick scan of the page. Quick being the operative word here. I am glad I asked first. Again many thanks for the information. I thought there might have been a problem with this watch, I have learned so much. Boy, you can type fast, very fast reply to my post. Ruby

[Kent]

Ruby:

Most of the text is "canned" and is copied and pasted into my replies. You're not the first person to ask many of these questions.

Good luck,

[Kent]

I just finished skimming through fkusumot (Frank)'s South Bend Website (http://southbendhorology.com/). This site, of which I've been unaware of previously, is a great South Bend resource! I urge people to spend some time exploring it.

[rubyarose]

Well, it looks like I am off to the bookstore, I have done a google and an auction search using variations of my search criteria with no results. Does this mean it is rare and special, one can only hope? Have a great day Ruby

[Kent]

Ruby:

Well, right at the beginning, I said that it was a "collectable watch." "The Studebaker" grades were right near the top of South Bend's line. 4,400 isn't considered rare, but when the production quantities of desireable watches get below 5,000, the values start to increase. I think that you are going to be pleasently surprised, especially if the gold on the case isn't worn through to the brass in any spots.

Good luck,

[Jon Hanson]

A highly popular and desired BUZZ name in watch and RR collecting!