Is this a good deal?

[Garydw]

I am very new to this and I do not want to slam any seller. But knowledge is power so educate me
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=977901504

[Garydw]

I am very new to this and I do not want to slam any seller. But knowledge is power so educate me
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=977901504

[lots of time]

For the buy it now price you probably will get what you pay for at least. I dont know anything about Tobias watches but I always get nervous when a seller can take a good picture of the dial and case back but cant seem to get a picture of the movement.

[Tom McIntyre]

Swiss Tobias watches are fakes. This has been discussed extensively here in other threads. The seller by calling it the "J" model and saying it is Swiss is technically disclosing everything about the watch. The fact that the listing says M. I. Tobias is misleading.

Read this thread to get much more information than you reall want. http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001731.html


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Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[John Cote]

There is a big difference between the watches which Tobias made himself, or in his shop and the Swiss movements with his name on them.

Worth is in the eye of the buyer and seller.

JC

[This message has been edited by John Cote (edited 11-06-2002).]

[Garydw]

I should have phrased my question in a different manner- I was skeptical of an american name on a swiss movement. I apologize of I broke any rules associated with this message board

[xylo]

John,

It appears from your comment that you earnestly believe that the Swiss bar movement watches that bear the M.J. Tobias stamp are low-end watches that M.I.Tobias himself had made and marketed. Am I correct? Do you have any documentation that would help resolve this issue once and for all?

[John Cote]

xylo,

I re-phrased my post above. I have heard that some of these Swiss watches actually were sold out of his shop and that some are fakes. I am certainly not an expert in the field of British Horology. Perhaps Mr. McIntyre will straighten us out.

JC

[lots of time]

I think if everyone interested reads the thread that Tom posted, most if not all, questions would be answered. A wealth of information there.

[John Cote]

I guess this is the relevant post from the other thread. I will keep my mouth shut about things like this from now on.


posted 01-20-2002 16:21
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Hello all. I would have missed this whole discussion if several of you hadn?t sent e-mails alerting me to the thread.
First of all, the reference to my articles is:

M. Edidin. English watches for the American market: A history of watchmaking by the Tobias families of London and Liverpool. Bulletin of the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors (Part I) pp. 515-544 October and (Part II) pp. 659-693 December, 1992.

I spent about 10 years researching the family, going over records in Liverpool and London, including family wills and trial records for two lawsuits that the firm of M.I. Tobias brought against English forgers of their watches.

First, both Britten and Patrizzi are wrong as quoted in the discussion. Morris Tobias was in partnership with both his nephews, M.I. Tobias and Lewis Levitt. M.I. ran the business in Liverpool, from around 1800 to 1812 (when a notice of dissolution of the partnership appeared in print). He separated amicably from Lewis Levitt in about 1820. Morris Tobias then continued the business on his own until his death in 1846. The business was inherited by Lewis Levitt?s sons, Isaac Levitt and Morris Tobias Levitt. They ran it into the ground by the early 1850?s.

According to family records, M.I. Tobias was adopted by his uncle Morris and presumably that is how he learned watchmaking. M.I.?s father, Isaac Isaacs, was not a watchmaker. The closest he came was being in debtors? prison as the same time as Thomas Earnshaw.

When M.I. Tobias went into business on his own, he quickly began to use Massey lever escapements. There are no M.I. T. & Co. watches with table roller until the early 1850?s, when the Massey escapement was not longer readily available (because the Masseys had gone out of the business.). Watches with this escapement weren?t just cool experiments ? they were the firm?s choice for levers.

Both Morris Tobias and M.I. Tobias did a big business with the US. M.I. had relatives in New York who handled the imports of (usually) uncased watches. Much of my article was based on their surviving letters (about 700 pages worth). Since many of the watches were cased here they commonly appear in cases lacking any hallmarks, or carrying fake hallmarks. As long as the watch number is stamped in the case, the watch /case combination is likely to be original.

Morris Tobias sold watches to lots of importers in both the north and the south. Most importantly, he sold chronometers through Bond of Boston, and the Bond papers contain records of the import and sale of a number of Tobias chronometers.

It is clear from the watches, the letters, and the testimony in the court cases that ?M.I. Tobias & Co.? was not only the firm?s name, it was a grade name. M.I. died in the 1830?s (while on a selling trip in the US) and the firm was continued by his sons until shortly after the end of the American Civil War. Through all that time ?M.I. Tobias & Co.? was reserved for top grade watches. (The very finest of these were also signed ?Lord Street?.). Second grade watches were signed ?William Robinson?. Hence for me one of the strongest points against the Swiss ?M.J. Tobias? watches is that the firm was not likely to splash its name ? usually reserved for high quality material ? on low quality Swiss watches.

A second point is the misuse of ?M.J.? rather than ?M.I.? This is deliberate, rather than a misreading of a script signature, since the classic M.I. T. & Co. watch has the signature in block letters, with an unmistakable ?I? for the middle initial. As one of the writers noted, this is equivalent to ?P.F. Bartlett?. The Swiss did this to other English makers ? there are watches with the cuvette signed ?Arnold Adams & Co.? that are clearly combining references to John Arnold and F.B. Adams. I also note that a nubmer of Swiss watches are signed ?M.J. Tobias London?, but M.I. T. & co. were strictly a Liverpool firm.

The quality of M.I. Tobias watches was very high. I have seen a number of ads offering watches for sale that make a point of mentioning Tobias watches. I have also found that the Swiss firm, Henri Moser marked cuvettes of their watches with different quality designations, each the name of an eminent watchmaker. Besides ?Qualite Berthoud? there is also ?Qualite Tobias? a tribute from maker to another.

Of course, forgery is also a form of tribute. At some point in the thread another writer makes the comment that Tobias watches were among the most often forged. That was also noted by the 19th century Swiss/American writer, Henry Piaget, who in his book ?The Watch? says the same thing, at the time when M.I. T. & Co. was still active.

I stated in my article , and I still maintain that none of the ?M.J. Tobias? watches hd anything to do with the firm.

Michael Edidin

[jwdavis]

Although Shugart's book still refers to these watches as Tobias, most posters here are in agreement that these watches are swiss fakes.

That being said, some people collect fakes and this one with the buy it now price is considerably less expensive than previous ones I have seen on eBay.

Jack Davis

[Tom McIntyre]

I agree with Jack on that point. At the buy it now price, this watch is no more expensive than similar examples I saw in flea markets 25 years ago not accounting for inflation.

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Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Garydw]

A very hearty Thank You to everyone for their input- your knowledge and opinions are appreciated. Too much to learn and so little time. In another life I must have been a watchmaker, these little machines just fascinate me so. I know my membership fees have been repayed in information.