antique skeleton elgin pocket watch. Need help!

[smoon]

Hello to all. I am new to this forum and I'm searching for some help. Today, I was offered an antique Elgin pocket watch. The serial number indicated that the movement was 100+ years old. The interesting aspect of the watch was the case. The case is 14K and the reverse side was encased with a crystal so the movement could be seen.I think this is known as a skeleton? The case also looked period. The dial has a beautifully painted bird on it. I think it was mosty likely a game bird. The watch is in fine working order. The asking price is $500.00. Does this sound like a good deal? Are antique skeleton back pocket watches rare? The current owner is not a dealer. Anyones opinion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ronnie

[smoon]

Hello to all. I am new to this forum and I'm searching for some help. Today, I was offered an antique Elgin pocket watch. The serial number indicated that the movement was 100+ years old. The interesting aspect of the watch was the case. The case is 14K and the reverse side was encased with a crystal so the movement could be seen.I think this is known as a skeleton? The case also looked period. The dial has a beautifully painted bird on it. I think it was mosty likely a game bird. The watch is in fine working order. The asking price is $500.00. Does this sound like a good deal? Are antique skeleton back pocket watches rare? The current owner is not a dealer. Anyones opinion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ronnie

[doug sinclair]

Ronnie,

Welcome to the NAWCC Message Board!

Your description is so general, it is difficult to advise you as to the watch you are being offered. It could be that the watch is in what is known as a "display" case. These cases were often used by commercial travellers who represented watch manufacturers, and these cases enabled the traveller to show off the latest product. Sometimes, new watches were shipped from the factory to the store in these cases. These cases were to be returned to the factory once the movement found its way into a case of the customer's choice. Without seeing a picture, it is not possible to tell whether this is what you are talking about. As to the Elgin watch in the case, we'd really need to see a picture which clearly shows the serial number of the inner works (movement) of the watch. As to advising on price? Unfortunately for you, we do not discuss prices on this message board.

[Tom Walker]

Ronnie,
It seems odd to me that this display case would be 14K. From your description the case sounds like it is an open face case; i.e., there's not a cover over the dial. If you plan to purchase the watch, ensure it is 14K "solid gold", and not 14K gold filled. Look for as assay mark or case maker, but if it has a crystal on the reverse side of the case as you described, this may not be possible. Welcome to the MB.
Tom Walker

[John F]

Ronnie, as Doug suggests, if you're able to post a picture, that would help. From the description, it sounds like you have a "hunting" movement (winds at 3 o'clock, with a cover that closes over the face), and the case's inner cover on the back (called a "cuvette") is a crystal instead of the more typical metal "door." If so, while these are not altogether very common cases, there are by no means "rare."

[smoon]

Thanks for the responses. The watch has a serial number of 10676457. The elgin site said this is a first run watch in the 291 style . Does a first run mean something like a first edition in book collecting? If so, does the value go up. I do not need exact price numbers, just in general. The watch case had no cover for the dial. A local jeweler inspected the watch and said it was 14k. The finest feature to the watch is the dial. Its really well done. I am still trying to make up my mind about the watch. I will try to get photos posted before I buy it. Thanks to all. Ronnie

[John F]

Well, my theory on the case is shot all to heck. A grade 291 Elgin is an "open face" movement (winds at 12, no cover).

Elgin's grade 291 was a very successful and long-lived design, and huge numbers were made over something like a 40+ year period. In other words, it's common as all get out. It was also designed to be a modest, affordable watch (read "inexpensive" or low-end). Some collectors do seek out examples of a first run, which sometimes results in a premium (or not, depending on the desirability of the grade). Your suggestion of a first edition of a book is probably a good analogy - a lot will depend on the desirability of the particular author/title before there's a discernable premium for a 1st edition. If you check Shugart's "Complete Guide to Watches" (available through the NAWCC gift shop, at a local bookstore, or perhaps your local library), or recent sales on ebay, I think you'll get a good sense of what the market is for a common, 7 jewel 16 size Elgin.

As for the case, I have not seen or heard of a 14K gold display case, but perhaps someone else here has. My guess is that this is actually a gold fill case (an inner core of base metal with an outer layer of gold), in which the rear cover has been replaced with a crystal from another case.

[Tom Walker]

Ronnie,
You have perked our interest! Certainly, pictures would help solve the mystery about the case. Does the case just have a crystal over the dial and one over the movement (back) and that's it? Like John, I have never seen a 14K display case, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. It could have been customed made to showoff the movement. Your local jeweler should know if it's gold, but there can't be much gold left without a cuvette (dust cover) and back cover.
Tom W.

[Wes]

Here are a couple of photos of (nickel) glass backs:
Hinged:
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/hampd/hampd_3113224b_s.jpg


Snap:
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/hampd/hampd_2663866b_s.jpg
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/hamil/hamil_1114952b_s.jpg