patek philippe engraved mvt

[hakonrs]

Just discovered this PP on EBAY.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4987452864&fromMakeTrack=true

At first I was amazed by this movement , but after a discussion with som swedish collectors
I learned that the movement possibly has been
modified later. I know there are some guys who
do these engravings on movements:
http://www.jochenbenzinger.de/
Is this movement original from PP or has it been modified later ? If it has , I think
it is bad for horology to do this to an original PP movent.
Greetings from Norway !
H Sandström :confused:

[hakonrs]

Just discovered this PP on EBAY.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4987452864&fromMakeTrack=true

At first I was amazed by this movement , but after a discussion with som swedish collectors
I learned that the movement possibly has been
modified later. I know there are some guys who
do these engravings on movements:
http://www.jochenbenzinger.de/
Is this movement original from PP or has it been modified later ? If it has , I think
it is bad for horology to do this to an original PP movent.
Greetings from Norway !
H Sandström :confused:

[4thdimension]

I see the Patek certification paper is included in the sale. Would not the ornate engraving be mentioned there if it were original to the watch?
-Cort

[Jon Hanson]

Oh my GOD--what will they think of next???

This is a disgrace!

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi H Sandström

no doubt, Patek Philippe would have made such decoration if any customer would have asked (and payed) for it. But such details of custumized watches are almost always recorded in the archive. On some archive copies in mmy collection even minor works like engraving a monogram are mentioned.

If you want this watch, make an arrangement with the seller that you can return it, if a copy from the archive turns out that this job wasn't done by Patek Philippe.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

[Hurricaneman]

If not done by PP, this could have certainly been comnmissioned by the owner. This is some ornate and expertly done engraving, no doubt expensive to do. To do this to a watch for resale.....doesn't make sense, 1,To spend that kind of money to, 2,create an unoriginal example that won't bring market value. Call me crazy, but I think this one's a unique well done work. I wonder who the original owner was?

[4thdimension]

I agree Hurricaneman. This issue has been a contentious one on this message board. The self-described purists(with whom I usually agree) contend that any monkeying with a watch once it has left the factory is a molestation. On the other hand, an article in the Bulletin a few issues back detailed a remarkable reworking of a high grade but not rare Elgin into fastasy grade wristwatch. In that case and this one, a high grade watch served as the ebauche for a highly skilled craftsman to create a new watch. The workmanship here appears to be very fine.

I agree that the use of an historically important watch to create art is destructive
but I don't think that kind of damage is involved here. Perhaps the engraver of this
Patek could ally himself with that company and have his work sanctioned by them?
-Cort

[Jon Hanson]

question:

Would the major and sophistocated Patek collectors want one of these in their collections-NOT! (and that is the answer to this one)

[4thdimension]

That's a fair question Jon and worthy of a survey.
Given the choice between this grossly marred Patek and the identicle movement one serial number after, and offerred for the same dollar ammount, what would folks here choose?
Assume, please, that this is an individual case and that there is not a rash of reworked
pieces and no threat of copycat ruining of other Pateks. Fair enough?
-Cort

[Kent]

Cort:

The very nature of your question will slant the results. By referring to the engraving as grossly maring the watch and asking if people would pay the same amount for a marred watch, you defeat the value of the survey.

Bear in mind that a similar job on an 18-size Hampden last year brought a large premium, with several well-known collectors bidding on it.

Why not change it to read:

Given the choice between this additionally and tastefully decorated (post-production) Patek and the identical movement one serial number after, and offerred for the same dollar ammount, what would folks here choose?

[Jon Hanson]

and please note that these did not leave the factory in this form!

Should a Hamilton or Illinois receive this treatment I am postitive the RR mavens would howl loudly here on the MB!

[Dr. Jon]

This watch movement may very well have been engraved at the factory. Patek build watches to order and if a customer wanted the movement engraved they woudl have been happy to oblige.

Patek liked to do things that would expose poor watch repair and ornate easily marred engraving would have been right in their game plan.

Shortly after I started collecting, a very knowledgable collector of Pateks showed me another engraved Patek movement, not as ornate as this but still a major effort.

Check out the Chinese market Flourier watches to see how the Swiss engraved movements.

Also check out the recent Antiquorum Vacheron and Constantin sale. ON eitem was called Ostrich feathers for very similar engraving.


Here is a link to it

Face of engraved watch (http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=178&auctionid=79)

The link does not show the movement but the catalog does

[4thdimension]

hi Kent,
My words "grossly marred" were chosen, tongue in cheek, to balance the two opinions on this watch. I should stick to the usual terminology
and use "molested" or "butchered".

If I were to take my suggested survey I confess
I'm leaning toward the "maimed" version over the "unsullied one". Perhaps it wouldn't look as good in person but It looks really nice from here.

I've seen gloriously skeletonized watches and
also watches destoyed by it. I'd rather own a
Dudley Masonic than the ho-hum 12s Hamilton they were made from. 99.9% of the time I am
against reworking an original watch but, this one was "ruined" so beautifully....
-Cort