A New American Watch - Interested?

[Dave Berghold]

In an effort to eleviate the reliance on the Swiss ETA made movements, the Montana Watch Co. is looking towards the future of watchmaking in this country again. We have information that leads us to the understanding that the movements made by the Swatch Group are no longer going to be made available to the small manufacturers in this country or at least at a greatly inflated price. If the movements are to be made available, then they will certainly be made available to only those with an unlimited budget.

At the moment, there are only a few in this country who are able (or who have the knowledge) to make a movement complete. Jeff and I are wanting to make a go of this project and would like to ask for your assistance. We are looking for individuals who have the tooling and or know-how to assist us in this effort. We've got the attension of the market and would like to persue the venture with those that are truly enthusiastic about the effort.

There has not been a truly American made watch in this country (with significant production figures) for the last 50 years. Wouldn't it be great to find a place in the market-place with a completely American made product once again?

We would certainly love to hear from you if you have somthing, as small as it may be, to offer us in in this quest.
Kind regards,
Dave

PS. I understand that this may be construed as a business advertisement. And you are mostly correct. Be that as it may, feel free to critisize once all of the respnses have been viewed. We are looking for tooling and any knowledge that may exsist that will offer a chance to persue our quest to make a watch COMPLETELY in the USA again. Your efforts will be greatly appreciated.

[Dave Berghold]

In an effort to eleviate the reliance on the Swiss ETA made movements, the Montana Watch Co. is looking towards the future of watchmaking in this country again. We have information that leads us to the understanding that the movements made by the Swatch Group are no longer going to be made available to the small manufacturers in this country or at least at a greatly inflated price. If the movements are to be made available, then they will certainly be made available to only those with an unlimited budget.

At the moment, there are only a few in this country who are able (or who have the knowledge) to make a movement complete. Jeff and I are wanting to make a go of this project and would like to ask for your assistance. We are looking for individuals who have the tooling and or know-how to assist us in this effort. We've got the attension of the market and would like to persue the venture with those that are truly enthusiastic about the effort.

There has not been a truly American made watch in this country (with significant production figures) for the last 50 years. Wouldn't it be great to find a place in the market-place with a completely American made product once again?

We would certainly love to hear from you if you have somthing, as small as it may be, to offer us in in this quest.
Kind regards,
Dave

PS. I understand that this may be construed as a business advertisement. And you are mostly correct. Be that as it may, feel free to critisize once all of the respnses have been viewed. We are looking for tooling and any knowledge that may exsist that will offer a chance to persue our quest to make a watch COMPLETELY in the USA again. Your efforts will be greatly appreciated.

[Jeff Hess]

Dave,

WE have discussed this type of thing in generalities on the Wristwatch board. Do a search on that board for our discussions.

While I am very HOT on this idea and will give you my 100 percent support on this, we should all speak "in general" on this topic, not just o Montana Watch Company.

What many American companies have been doing so far, that is, importing Swiss or German movements and then casing them in Hong Kong, Germany or in the case of Montana Watch Company, in the good old USA or what RGM is doing, with their wrist watches is very exciting.

And the prospect of a truly American ebauche is very exciting indeed.

Are you guys planning such a thing? Waltham and several others have floated doing this as well. There are several guys with old machinery that are members of the NAWCC. Are you guys going to do a pocket or wrist watch? (Canit be partially Swiss or must it be ALL American? (I love your watches BTW, and have severalin my possesion. Good stuff) Is it possible to do a hybridinthe beginning as Muhle Glashutte does? (They import Swiss Ebauches from ETA into Germany and make the rotors, dials and cases themselves)

Tell us more. Jeff Hess

JPH

[BMW]

Wow! Great idea. I'd love to see it happen and would hope to be in a position to purchase such a watch. Unfortunately, I'm fairly new to simple repair of watches and cannot be of any assistance with fabrication. Good luck.
B

[Julian Smith]

I wish you well in your quest.
I have often daydreamed about new American movements.In my dreams I take a good,easy to service mechanical movement and use all the original parts possible.
For instance; a Bulova 10 AK or 10 BC.The setting parts are already there.The train is there.Take the mainspring space and put the cell there.Use the balance space for the circuit and the escape wheel space for the rotor.Having the coil made in a circle around the rotor with a speed to turn the 4th wheel at one turn a minute finishes it up.
Now all I need is somone a whole lot smarter than I am to do all the engineering.
See how simple it is?
Good luck and keep us posted on any developments.
Julian Smith

[Jeff Hess]

I see tons of opportunity here.

Does anyone know where any of the 1950's to 1960's machinery around. Can any of it be salvaged?

This is very very exciting.

Jeff Hess

JPH

[Dave Berghold]

Thank you all for your enthusaism. As Jeff Hess notes, its not something the Montana Watch CO. wants to do alone. We are not able at this stage to make a watch complete withough the reliance upon imported movements. There is a will, there's short-sighted know-how and far sighted dreams. I'd like to make them a reality. I regret that I can't see the "all american made watch" being too affordable to the masses. As with all new ventures, there will be those that brave it, grin and bear it, spend for it, and with any luck will make a product that will win. The Swiss are turning out movement at an alarming rate of "mass production". They learned a lot of this from the US manufacturers during the golden era. Knowing what the Swiss charge for a Unitas (PW movement) even in small quantities, it would be a stretch to say that we can even begin to compete (price point) until American production was to reach a similar quantity. Most watch repairmen wouldn't even overhaul that movement for what it costs new. We're starting small and seeing where it takes us.
Keep the lines of communication open and with a little offort from the watch enthusiast, this idea might very well be a reality.
Best,
Dave

[Wes]

Keep us posted.
I don't know what kind of capital it would take to start up such an endeavor, and I can't predict how successful an American watch company could be. It is so hard to compete with all of the anti business laws and expensive labor here in the states.
I really hope it works out. It would be great if history can repeat in this case.

NAWCC# 156994; Chapter 149 Member #149
Web Horology MB (www.webhorology.com)

[This message was edited by PoorDudeFromCal on January 30, 2003 at 12:52.]

[Tim]

Great idea!

[bil2054]

Dave, this sounds like a very exciting idea. Do you envision some sort of cottage industry, with a bunch of enthusiasts producing parts to spec. all over the country, and a central final assembly? This would be neat, but the logistics might get a little twisty.
I've read with interest a little about laser imaging techniques, which are used to create a digitized "blueprint". I guess the data is then loaded into a CNC mill, and hey, presto! exact copies of your prototype. Imagine downloading your digitized part design to, say, a dozen small job shops or individuals with CNC capabilty, and getting back EXACTLY what you wanted. Laser cutting has great potential here, too, but I don't know how many folks are into that, or how costly it is.
Anyway, good luck! Keep us posted.

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710
Bill's web page (http://bil2054.freeservers.com)

[Tim]

I would assume so, but you might need mechanical mills to do precision work...laser might leave "burrs" due to melting of material around perimeter of a hole, for example.

-Tim M.

[Tim]

However, I should add that the use of laser imaging and sending the job out to a number of small shops capable of precision work is a very clever idea.

-Tim M.

[bil2054]

As far as as accuracy and finish are concerned, the literature describes these in terms of picometers and microinches, i.e. a better finish than you get with alot of polishing operations. One possible area of concern is pitting in lower grade steels due to pockets of phosphorous, etc, but cold rolled carbon steel for example seems to have little trouble this way.
Oh, and the cutting operations can be calibrated for heat treating effects at the same time. :biggrin:
I see where in ebay you can purchase a laser milling machine for only $35,000, and a digital imaging scanner for about $3,500. Not a big layout for extreme accuracy and speed!

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710
Bill's web page (http://bil2054.freeservers.com)

[Tim]

What about discoloration from the heat produced by the laser?

Surprisingly inexpensive, considering.

-Tim M.

[Dave Berghold]

The thought about the cottage industry is a great one. In essence, this is what we are doing now (including the Swiss). Our cases are made here in Montana by a local machinist. The dials are made in this country too. The final assembly and testing is done by myself. The Swiss supply the movements. I'd like to see a more "national" effort made with this project.

The laser idea is a great one. I'll be talking with our case maker and see what he thinks about the possibility. I think it would be great to take and old (and nice quality) movement and reproduce it with modifications. As Jeff Hess and I discussed recently, this was a common practice when one company changed hands. The plates and basic layout stayed the same with only modest modifications. I recently restored a Dudley Masonic watch for a customer that required some parts and behold, the Hamilton Watch Co. made lots of the parts for that company. It was a success.

Please keep this thread going as I know ther is a lot of interest and with any luck, there will be an American made watch in the future!

Many thanks,
Dave
Montana Watch Co. www.montanawatch.com (http://www.montanawatch.com)
Last Wind-Up - www.lastwindup.com (http://www.lastwindup.com)

[Cary]

Speaking of Casemakers..A RL Wadsworth posted on another site today, discussing his families watch cases.

Bet he has a few stories.

Cary

[bil2054]

Tim, heat discoloration should not be a problem with short pulse lasers.

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710
Bill's web page (http://bil2054.freeservers.com)

[Tim]

Good to know, Bill...thanks.

As for rlw, he posted on TZ discussing his family's business in casemaking.

-Tim

[Jeff Hess]

Dave,

WE have certainly talked about this before and you I have spoken a few times on the phone about this and yes. Yes. Yes. This should be and COULD be done in some form.

Wonder if we should crawl a bit before we walk. You guys at Montana Watch have done an admirable job on the WWI looking cased in the USA. Which brings up a point. If we work backwards, that is go back to the "cased and timed in the USA" thing of the late 1960's, that Hamilton didin conjunction with Buren and others, we may be able to start slowly. You guys have proven that you can do this already.

Why not do dials here and cases here and "CASE AND TIME" them here, and ALSO perhaps, make the rotors here (as Muhle Glashutte is doing with ETA movement imported into Germany) we could demonstrate to investors and hobbiests that we are serious about this venture. In other words, take qhat Montana Watch has been doing already and taking it up a notch. Make a hybrid
as RGM is doing! I love what RGM is doing and tehy have poised themselves as an "AMERICAN watch company, even though he uses Swiss movements. Muhle Glashutte has successfully maintained that they are a "GERMAN" company even though they use Swiss ETA movements. IS this possilbe? Or is it an "ALL OR NOTHING" scenario? This
is very exciting stuff. Jeff Hess

JPH

[Tim]

Smart thinking, Jeff. I agree that taking some smaller steps first and building up to the "main event" as it were is the most sensible policy. There will almost undoubtedly be unforseen expenses and complications in this most exciting venture.

Just my two cents,

Tim

[Julian Smith]

I think Tom Macintire has the plans for his namesake watch.Maybe you could restart that company.BTW there is a lot of the Hamilton machinery still extant.It's strewed from Hell to Texas but maybe some is available.
J Smith

[Steve Maddox]

I think you guys fail to grasp the complexity of the problem. There's a good reason why only a few firms in the world make complete movements, and many of the most successful watch companies leave the job to ebauche makers who specialize in it (and even the ebauche makers don't come out with new models very often!).

In short, if Breitling, Tag, Baume & Mercier, and many other hugely successful companies can't figure out how to make their own movements, what makes you guys think you're up to the task?

Believe me, no one likes the idea any better than I do, but it's a pipe dream. It's theoretically possible, but it would require teams of engineers, banks of specialized machinery, a financial backer with virtually unlimited resources, and there's no way the end product could be economically competitive.

Sorry, but that's what I think.
----------------------------------

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[GandalfPC]

I think that the watch companies you speak of are simply not interested in making their own movements. They can buy them cheaper and easier than they can make them, so they don't bother trying.

There are others, such as George Daniels and watchmakers of old that have gone though extreme difficulty to produce their own watches, and have managed to produce many that I would pay much more for than I would for a run of the mill movement.

If the movements produced are of a high caliber they will be able to demand high prices. A bit of ingenuity might even allow an assembly line to be created to put out a decent number of them.

I do think that the chances of creating cheap American made movements to compete with the current makers is going to be nearly impossible - but creating a higher end product is another matter... Difficult to be sure, risky at best perhaps, but certainly a worthwhile pursuit...

Jason Goldman
Apprentice Watchmaker

[bil2054]

Steve, I would have to agree with Jason on the matter of why the big guns don't produce their own ebauches. It has more to do with the evolution of the industry than anything else. When the numerous goldsmiths and jewelers were put out of business by Calvin's edict against personal adornment, there was a ready made workforce of skilled artisans looking for some way to earn a living. I believe this formed an historic pattern for the (particularly Swiss) industry that, until recently, there was no reason to change. (Presently, I understand some of the "big boys" are moving to put the entire process under one roof.)
This is one reason I think a "cottage industry" approach has some chance of success. There are a multitude of skilled hobbyists with the requisite skills and equipment to produce some or all the components, and who might relish the challenge. A little extra cash flow wouldn't hurt either.
You may ultimately prove right, but I believe the proposal bears enough promise to warrant further investigation.

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710
Bill's web page (http://bil2054.freeservers.com)

[Jeff Hess]

Bill you are right.

And steve has some good points, but Steve, many other watch companies ARE persuing making theri own movements! Muhle is making htier own rotors, Chevalier, Ikepod, Chopard, RGM, Waltham and many others are actively persuing making thwir own movements. Out of prid and out of necessity!
SWATCH is reportedly being very selective about who gets how many movements at any given time and are reprotedly increasing the cost fo the movements as well. It is not a matter of how or whther it is going to happen. It is just a matter of time. It WILL happen. We WILL see a renaissance of ebauche and movement making!
And why shouldn't we Americans be involved? Montana Watch is already casing up watches in the USA with Swiss movements. They are looking inot making some with old stock movements. I manufactured a line of J. Boss watches with Swiss movements. I also foudn new/old stock German movements from PUW and had them sent to Germany to manufacture a well documented ALL GERMAN WATCH. This type of thing CAN and WILL be done. The next logical step is an ebauche. And Steve is right, we will not be able to compete price-wise, but profit at this grass roots effort may not even be a motive.

This is a good thing. Let's pool our reources and go after this!
Jeff Hess

JPH

[bil2054]

Here is an article which explains some of the market forces behind the tightening of supply in Swiss manufactured components:
Swiss market (http://www.bhi.co.uk/hj/February2001.htm)
There may be some hints here for anyone considering launch of a new product.

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710
Bill's web page (http://bil2054.freeservers.com)

[Jeff Hess]

I am leaving for Germany on Thursday and oneof the reasons for my tripis to tour a "supposedly" "NEW" movement manufacturer that will be asociated with Ikepod and Chevalier.

Will report back on this.
Jeff Hess

JPH

[bil2054]

Very cool, Jeff. Have a good trip.

Bill Miller
NAWCC Member #157710
Bill's web page (http://bil2054.freeservers.com)

[RichG]

I agree with Steve Maddox on this. Even if the established companies do make their own movement, could an American company be competitive? NO!
I would compare it to trying to start a new car company, using all American made components, trying to be competive with the Big Three. Can you build the cars? Sure! Can you make it profitable? I doubt it.
I would love to see a lot of products made entirely in the Good Old US of A. Reality is, those days are long gone.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Rich
NAWCC #0157382
I would love to see a

[GandalfPC]

There are a bunch of guys out there making a fortune building custom motorcycles...

[rotifer]

Absolutely fascinating concept. Some positive lessons could be drawn from Hamilton. They started in a down economy, and succeeded through good design and specialization. They didn't try to go head-to-head with the Walthams and Elgins on lower-grade watches. They were trying to appeal to clientele who wanted accuracy, beauty and functionality. That clientele is still out there, and American-made can only be an advantage.
It's a financial minefield out there, though. Capitalization problems doomed many a good watch company. Many more financial tools exist to help now (capital budgeting, cost of capital analysis, etc.), but they often require an ability that humans mostly lack - ability to predict the future.
If they're made, I'll buy them (pocket watches, especailly).

B. Dispenza
apprentice in NE Indiana