Private Label in gap in Illinois List

[jim88]

Chances are that a watch in this gap in the Illinois list has already been found but if not here's what I have. This is an 18s Illinois model 6, private label marked MORCK & KIRBERGER WARREN, PA. - all engraved on the barrel bridge. Serial no. is 1594707. The Illinois list has a gap from 1594701 to 1594800. It is OF, nickle, stem wound, lever set, whiplash reg., and single roller. It is EA 457. It has 11 jewels having 4 extra jewels on the top plate for the pallet, escape, 3rd, and 4th wheels. Jewels are in settings screwed to the plate. It is damaskeened in plain, wide, parallel, straight swaths same as those pictured on page 261, #9 of the Illinois book vol.2 by Meggars and Ehrhardt. The plate screws are not blue. The hard enamel dial is single sunk, arabic numeral and marked Illinois Watch Co. Except for the not blue screws the only grade this watch fits into is grade 99. The only other 18s, 11j ON6L in the book is grade 101 which has bezel set jewels and a simple reg. so I'm ruling that grade out. A question for the Illinois guys. Do you think the entire run of 100 was all of this watch or was it a mix of other private labels and/or grades? Upon assembly after cleaning I found a loose pallet jewel. I reshellaced it into place but now the balance wheel is not getting a full impulse, and is a little sluggish. I'm hoping it's just the pallet jewel needing to be pushed in of out. Any suggestions? Jim.

[jim88]

Chances are that a watch in this gap in the Illinois list has already been found but if not here's what I have. This is an 18s Illinois model 6, private label marked MORCK & KIRBERGER WARREN, PA. - all engraved on the barrel bridge. Serial no. is 1594707. The Illinois list has a gap from 1594701 to 1594800. It is OF, nickle, stem wound, lever set, whiplash reg., and single roller. It is EA 457. It has 11 jewels having 4 extra jewels on the top plate for the pallet, escape, 3rd, and 4th wheels. Jewels are in settings screwed to the plate. It is damaskeened in plain, wide, parallel, straight swaths same as those pictured on page 261, #9 of the Illinois book vol.2 by Meggars and Ehrhardt. The plate screws are not blue. The hard enamel dial is single sunk, arabic numeral and marked Illinois Watch Co. Except for the not blue screws the only grade this watch fits into is grade 99. The only other 18s, 11j ON6L in the book is grade 101 which has bezel set jewels and a simple reg. so I'm ruling that grade out. A question for the Illinois guys. Do you think the entire run of 100 was all of this watch or was it a mix of other private labels and/or grades? Upon assembly after cleaning I found a loose pallet jewel. I reshellaced it into place but now the balance wheel is not getting a full impulse, and is a little sluggish. I'm hoping it's just the pallet jewel needing to be pushed in of out. Any suggestions? Jim.

[John Cote]

Jim,

I am not sure whether a watch in this gap has been seen yet or not. I hope Russ Snyder reads this post, but this watch does not register in Russ's new serial number list either.

Since the run following your watch is grade 99 and since yours has 11 jewels and the plate and damascening pattern you describe, I would say that calling it a grade 99 is as close as you are going to get. The original Illinois manufacturing list I have seen does not give grade numbers for the runs anyway, so Illinois must have given much less importance to the grade numbers than we do now.

Maybe your watch answers a question and fills in a gap. Thanks for the information.


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JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC

http://www.interstatetime.com

[terry hall]

I have sent Russ a email about this thread.
I think he is out until after the holiday.

The Illinois list I use is in Volume II by Ehrhardt and Meggers.

In the past few years, watches have emerged that have not been exactly kosher with the existing serial number list. We have found Sangamo Specials where there were none and 23 J 60 hour watches in runs that are listed as 21j, along with others.
The serial number list was published in 1985 [i think], since then the internet has opened the eyes of many and examples not previously seen before have emerged. You really have to give a hats off to the researchers, as they were relying on movements they handled and examples reported by telephone and snail mail.
A friend of mine and myself have documented the changes in the lists we have and hope to share this information with Russ when the time comes.

Our research has been mostly in the 16 size movements, where Russ has concentrated on the 18s. Hopefully it will all gell together.

[Kent]

Terry:
I think that the list that Dave was refering to is the 1993 update of the one that was published in Vol. II.

Dave
I've looked up a fairly large number of watches in that list and have found only a very small percentage at variance with it.

Kent :smile:

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 12-28-2001).]

[terry hall]

Thanks Kent,
I will look that one over too. I have it.

As I mentioned above, the internet has shown examples of movements that have not been seen before and examples in listed runs that are not as described.

One example......
4216051-4217000 is listed as a model 8 bunn special 21j hunter. A check mark was made by author to indicate a reported example.
Recently serial # 4216500 was seen. It is a 23j Sangamo Special.

Another falls in range 4265001-4267000. It is listed as a model 3 17j grade 405.
Movement # 4266466 was seen...another 23j Model 13 Sangamo Special.

We have also noted some fishscale movements where they were supposed to be brite spotted.
And mixed runs of Type I and II 60 hour 21j bunns.

[Jon Hanson]

yes, pictures and a description. Thx. Jon

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
President and moderator chapter 149

[Russ Snyder]

Jim was kind enough to send me Xerox copies of the movement, face plate, and dial. Scanning photocopies doesn't produce optimum results, but here they are:
http://pallus.cic.uiuc.edu/db2ksite/1594707-mvt.jpg
http://pallus.cic.uiuc.edu/db2ksite/1594707-face-plate.jpg
http://pallus.cic.uiuc.edu/db2ksite/1594707-dial.jpg

The damaskeening pattern is identical to what one finds on a Grade "59" movement, but there is no indication these were ever made in an 11-jewel version. FYI, the horizontal bar pattern differs from that found on Grade "69" movements, because the bands are narrower on the "59".

I have not seen that many Grade "99" movements, although nearly everyone I recall featured some type of circular pattern.

Nevertheless, I suspect that this is a Grade "99", since that Grade exhibits a wide variety of damaskeening styles, and it would not be inconsistent to find this horizontal bar pattern on a Grade "99".

Also, if the numbering in the serial number listing is simply a typo, there may not be a gap at all. The previous run of Grade "51" movements ended as indicated with s/n 1,594,700. The next run might well have begun with s/n 1,594,701 instead of the 1,594,801 indicated. That would eliminate any gap.

For a similar example of this kind of typographical error, see the production run which begins with 1,217,901 and the run immediately following that one. Here the typo is much more obvious and easily accounted for. There are many such errors in the production runs, and I'm still trying to sort out as many as possible.

Those who can offer another explanation based on the pictures, I'd love to hear from you.

[Russ Snyder]

I just found another Grade "99" 11j watch on eBay this morning with the identical damaskeening pattern as Jim's watch:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1688520304

That pretty much confirms it for me -- the supposed gap should, IMHO, now be "closed" -- the two production runs should read:

1,594,101 - 1,594,700 = Grade "51" etc.
1,594,701 - 1,595,300 = Grade "99" etc.

My thanks to Jim for bringing this watch to our attention.

Russ