Is this a usual early E. Howard Series III escapement?

[Walt Wilkins]

I have recently acquired a Series III, serial number 3681. I am far from being an expert on E. Howards. What is this escapement?

http://baymoon.com/~pockets/howard3.jpg

[Jon Hanson]

lever escapement for this series 3 Howard

[Walt Wilkins]

Oops! Didn't do the picture properly, trying again.

http://baymoon.com/~pockets/howard3.jpg

[Jon Hanson]

IF IT POINTS R. IT IS COLES.

[Jon Hanson]

NICE SCREWED IN SETTINGS

[John Pavlik]

Walt,

Does the balance wheel ride above or below the center wheel ??

[Jon Hanson]

all early ones ride above the ctr wheel.

[Walt Wilkins]

Yes, It is above the center wheel.

[John Pavlik]

Walt,

I believe this is called a single hanging pin.. The banking of the lever is done with 1 pin that goes thru the right side of the lever and hangs into the cutout below the lever..Not seen to often..

[Walt Wilkins]

Thanks John,

Now that you have drawn my attention to that area, I can see the pin in the photo.

[Clint Geller]

What is the serial number of this movement?

The single banking pin style of lever escapement, which was used by roughly contemporary watches by Adolph Lange and other Glashutte watchmakers, was introduced on Howard's Model 1858 Type D and E (aka Series II) and has been seen on Model 1862 3/4 plate (aka Series III) movements with S#s as late as 6,456. The earliest occurrence in my records of toe ended escape wheel teeth, such as those on the example pictured in this thread, is S# 3,406. Balance-over center production petered out around S# 8,131. Full sets of screwed down jewel settings on the top plate are unusual in this early S# range.

[Jon Hanson]

repeated 3681 series III, lever escapement with BO run to about 8200.

[Jeff Hess]

Wow.

Now this is what I call talent.

Dr. Geller AND Jon Hanson are all over this one!

Thanks!

[Clint Geller]

The first standard Model 1862 (Series III) movement in my records with balance under center is 8,237. So splitting the difference, 8,200 is an excellent guess for the end of "BO" production, although I strongly suspect the actual endpoint was a little ragged with some overlap. That said, it is noteworthy that the K and I size movements, as well as the helical hairspring movements and several other experimentals such as S#'s 1,198 and 3,202 were all "BU."

[Jon Hanson]

DR HESS,

OF COURSE SOME PRE 82OO SERIES III's have the balance under center which is not generally known.

FTR: Insidentally 8237 is from the Col Townsend coll. and listed in his notebook and once reposed in my collection.

[Walt Wilkins]

Since the escapement has now been explained, I thought it worthwhile to send more pictures.
Thanks for the info gentlemen.
Cheers, Walt

http://baymoon.com/~pockets/3681f.jpg
[img]http://baymoon.com/~pockets/3681cm.jpg
http://baymoon.com/~pockets/3681m.jpg
http://baymoon.com/~pockets/3681b.jpg

[Jon Hanson]

nice and original and appears NOT to be SWITCHED. A keeper.

[Clint Geller]

The MB incused inside the bowtie shaped field stands for Margot Brothers, a major Howard factory customer.

[Jon Hanson]

THIS IS ONE OF, IF NOT THE MOST, RECOGNIZABLE ORIG HOWARD CASES, ESP FOR SERIES THREE MOVEMENTS.

[Clint Geller]

This particular maker, Margot Bros, made a number of silver open face cases for early Model 1862 Howard movements with spring open back lids - an unusual feature. This case is not one of them, however.

[Jon Hanson]

the invisible spring--where would the spring be? There is none in the picture!

[Clint Geller]

Repeated: "This case is not one of them, however."

[Jon Hanson]

added to the orig past post

[Jon Hanson]

so back and forth we go, where it will end nobody knows!:biggrin:

[Jon Hanson]

half hunters as these are commonly called for MB cases were an added feature at a later date for later movements as previously incorrectly stated.

Confusion occurs due to frequent SWITCHING of early Howards which has become common place since the Flautie era, the dark side of collecting!

[Clint Geller]

Nothing was "added to the previous post." I didn't even know that was possible. As for the case springs being added later on a significant number of very similar cases, that's a spectacular claim, and one with no particular rsationale, requiring spectacular proof. What is the proof?

[Dr. Jon]

Going back to the escapement. It looks like a Coles to me but I readily admit I know a lot less about this than Jon and Clint.

If it is Coles, it stays banked against the escape wheel tooth, which was the idea of a Coles. I have seen a Howard hanging pin or Lange banking and this lever does not have such a pin. The only pin I see clearly is the safety for the single roller. I also do not see any other possibility for banking.

The balance wheel is also interesting. It has "wings" where the arms meet the rim, making it what the English call a chronometer balance.

[John Pavlik]

Dr. Jon,

Look closly at the right pallet stone.. The dark spot to the right of it is the "hanging" pin.. There is a clear cut out below this and the pin is visable..You may need a high resolution monitor to see this, as it is not the clearest on some lower resoulution screens..

[Jon Hanson]

originality; unfortunately switching of these is rampant and newbies don't understand case styles and periods-a real shame.

[Dr. Jon]

John P

Thanks, now I see what you meant.

[Tom McIntyre]

For everyone's comfort about the flow of information, you can only edit a post within a short time after posting it without it showing an edited statement at the bottom of the posting.

I am not sure how long Jeff has the grace period set. The short period is to allow the poster to correct "oops" kinds of errors.

I am a stickler for spelling, so I often correct my own posts for spelling and grammar.

[peg leg]

Congrats to this gentleman for aquiring all original. We have been at this station in past posts.

Less words are better, my cheap version of owning a series III without breaking the bank.

Keith R...

http://static.flickr.com/46/160045189_047724054e.jpg

[Walt Wilkins]

Thanks again, gentlemen, I wish to particularly thank John Pavlik for explaining the "hanging pin" type escapement and Clint Geller for elaborating on it and educating us on both the Lange style escapement used in some of the early E. Howard watches and on the casemaker. Both gentlemen did so in a straightforward, professional manner. As a 35 year member of the NAWCC, one of the things that has always impressed me is that there is always someone willing to share knowledge freely with others. In turn, that knowledge has been passed on to those who were unable to identify the type of escapement when asked at the recent Chapter 5 meeting and at the recent regional in Del Mar. Several expressed a need to re-check their Series III watches.

Walt Wilkins