Engraving - Good or Bad or Indifferent?

[Hatman]

Just curious whether the community feels that personalized engravings on pocketwatch cases add to or detract from the "value"? Does the degree of personalization make a difference? For instance, is a monogram different somehow than an outright name? What about sayings, maxims, poems, etc? Are the most prized items "pristine" or does a degree of use count?

[Hatman]

Just curious whether the community feels that personalized engravings on pocketwatch cases add to or detract from the "value"? Does the degree of personalization make a difference? For instance, is a monogram different somehow than an outright name? What about sayings, maxims, poems, etc? Are the most prized items "pristine" or does a degree of use count?

[doug sinclair]

Hatman,

Speaking for myself, I prefer them without engraving. I suppose engraving might be considered to add to the desirability of a watch. A presentation watch TO a famous person, or FROM a famous person, along with some form of proof of the veracity of the piece might be an example. I once saw one at the Henry Ford Museum that was a presentation to George M. Cohan, actor, producer, playwright, and writer of popular songs. I once ran into a high grade pocket watch in an 18 karat white gold case, diamond and caliber-cut sapphire set case band (could have been Patek). It was engraved as a presentation to a turn-of-the-century Mexican revolutionary. A hunter cased one with the cuvette engraved might be considered inoffensive. Like the one I saw a few years ago that had the cuvette engraved as a presentation to a young man from Manitoba (Canada) who had pulled two children out of a lake, early in the 20th century. Engraving on the outer case of a gold filled watch would have serious implications as to the longevity of the finish on the case once cut through to the base metal. And, heaven forbid you should run into one that was MACHINE engraved! If the case had a cartouche on the front or rear cover, and the engraving was limited to a monogram and had been sensitively done and had not caused deterioration, I might accept that. Or, if you ran into an Edward Howard, a Gruen 25th anniversary, or a crystal plate Waltham with engraving, you'd be silly to turn your nose up at it. In short, its pretty much a personal decision. BUT, if you can get the watch for a better price by telling the vendor it drags down the value-------? Regards, Doug S.

While we are on the topic, how about telling us all about the interesting engraved watches that you have run into.

P. S. A quick search on GOOGLE confirmed my recollection that the famous Mexican revolutionary was Emiliano Zapata!
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[This message has been edited by Doug Sinclair (edited 12-21-2001).]

[Kent]

Some collectors feel that any monogram or inscription detracts from the value of a watch. I've heard that this attitude is so extreme in the U.K. that especially thick monogramed cases, in otherwise like-new condition are "shaved" and polished to "restore" the case to pristine condition.

From the viewpoint of the watch(es) as an investment, I suppose that, because of the attitude of some, a monogram or inscription detracts from the value when the watch is attempted to be sold, or at least makes it harder to sell.

Other collectors aren't so picky. I've seen one eBay seller claim that a watch was "New Old Stock" even though it had a presentation inscription on it. Obviously, he didn't feel that evidence that the watch was purchased and presented to somebody detracted from the concept of an never-been-sold watch. Of course, he was selling, not buying.

Some inscriptions may add value to a watch. I have an Elgin Veritas whose factory case has a presentation to one of the workers in Elgin's screw department. I think that this adds to the interest. Cases of railroad watches engraved as loaners, or with a brotherhood emblem (BofLE, BRT, ORC, etc.) also make the case and watch more interesting, and add to the value. The problem is that engraving could have been done 100 years ago, or yesterday, so collectors are leery of significant engravings. Those that can be documented as being original, and/or, from a famous person certainly add to the value of the watch.

From a non-monetary, and personal viewpoint, some engraved monograms or inscriptions are especially nice, and I like them. Others are particularly poor and I don't like them. And, I ignore the majority.

Kent

P.S. Upon posting this, I see that Doug has answered while I was rambling on. Please ignore any of my repetitions of similar thoughts that Doug has expressed so well.

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 12-21-2001).]

[doug sinclair]

Hatman,

You asked watches personalized by engraving, and this set my memory to working overtime. About 15 years ago, I had an 18 karat gold watch brought to me by an elderly friend which she was offering for sale. It is the only English-made watch with a cylinder escapement (ruby cylinder) that I have ever seen. The numerals on the porcelain dial had been replaced with 11 letters, starting at the 7, and ending at the 5. The letters were: MAXIMO TAJES. Now, in those days, I wasn't hooked up to the internet, so I was unable to research the name. I went to the Public Library, but found nothing. I sent the watch of to Sotheby's in New York, and it sold at the second auction at a price less than the original pre sale estimate.

After my reply to your question about engraving, I recalled the TAJES watch, and decided to see what I could find out about the original owner.

I went to GOOGLE and typed in the name MAXIMO TAJES, to find out that he was the president of URUGUAY in 1886! I could have had that watch for $ 800 US!!! D--n, D--n, D--n!

Regards,
Doug S.

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[Larry Jones 98326]

Hatman,

Having bought and sold watches now for 13 years or so, my experiece is that collectors are pretty well split on this question. Some abhor any engraving, others aren't bothered in the least. I personally don't mind at all so long as the engraving is more or less original to the first sale of the watch. I personally don't care for a 1980 presentation engraved on the back of a 1930 watch.
I especially like some of the 1920-1940 style engraving, in fact, I'll try to post my favorite under a separate thread later today.

Larry

[John Cote]

I have one friend in our local chapter who collects nothing but watches with personalizations. I have another friend in the chapter who would never buy a watch like this.

My personal feeling is that if the engraving is historical or beautiful it might add to the value for me. Other wise I would prefer not to have it.


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JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC

http://www.interstatetime.com

[Cary]

Answering this as a wristwatch collector, not a PW collector.

I do not mind engraving any. I dont buy to resell, and I kind of feel a link to "Mr. Joe Smith who gave 35 years of dedicated service." from Coswell Cogs

But, if Joe Smith took out his electric pencil and engraved his name and social on the back of a nice watch...Well I would avoid that one.

Military watches.....GOTTA HAVE engraving, otherwise no proof of issue. Actually gotta study the engraving to make sure it is not fake.

[rrwatch]

A brief story about engraving. A woman I worked with ran across an old swiss KW/KS silver hunter. It wasn't anything special, and was only in average condition. However, the original owner had engraved on the back his name and rank, along with "137th NY Volunteers, 15 April 1863" By the time we got through, we had the owner's entire life history and learned what battles the watch was carried in up until the end of the Civil War. Here is a case where I feel the engraving added a huge amount, both from a historical and a financial perspective.

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Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688

[terry hall]

A great number of watches that were presentations were not used daily, therefore the conditon of some of these examples can be "up there".

Sometimes even if you don't like the personalization, the condition of the entire watch can be the selling [or buying] point. I also agree that many use the presence of engraving as a 'dickering' point. :wink:

I do agree there are some presentations the add value to the timepiece. You can't ignore historical evidence.

As a general rule, I try to stay away from engraved examples :wink:.....but I have broken that rule.....many times :biggrin:

Kent mentioned an example that was described as NOS that was engraved. I saw it also. IMHO, that does not make it NOS by ANY definition, and I don't care how 'rare' the watch is.

[Jeff Hess]

Mike Malicki or Milwaukee, a long time NAWCC member and dear friend, and I have been talking for years about doing some kind of project with engraved watches.

AS Dave has pointed out, with the advent of the net, true historians are giddy with excitement. I now NEVER sell a watch without doing a net search of the former owner.

The "romance" of collecting is only enhanced even MORE when you find that the same "Joe Blow, 1877 Cleveland" shows matches for that area, that time and that place and name and that this same Joe Blow was a ship owner and that he had parks named after him. Or that Ed SMythe, of Leciester was a quarryman, or that "Albert Meyer" was a soldier or that "Bill Edwards" was a Bus Driver. You get the picture.

I have been researchingthis kind of thing for years and feel that a new NAWCC chapter could be started for this. A cyber-chapter of some kind. Mike wants to do book on this.

My most humourous example of of engraving was on an English watch 18k that was meant to embarrass the founder of Rolex. I bought it from Richard Gilbert a few years ago. IT read, "This 18 Carat gold watch was given in recompense to make up for the 3 watches given to Wilsdorf & Davis for Repair that were NEVER RETURNED" HAh!

Kind of permanent early 20th century BAD FEEDBACK! LOL.

[Rick White]

Jeff,
I had a similar experience this year. I picked up a cheapie English rack lever. I wasn't familiar with the maker so I did a search on Google on him. The only results, were an English website that sold watches. It had a similar watch as mine for sale. Just for Giggles,again, on Google I did a search on the owners name and the presentation date of 1852. To my surprise there was a plethora of information on a couple of geneolgy sites, complete with surviving ancestors. I paid very little for the piece as I said earlier. I plan on contacting the ancestors and presenting the watch to them in exchange for any more information they possess. I might even do a short Bulletin article on the story. There is some indication that one branch of the family moved to the colonies. I would love to be able to document how this watch came to end up in my hands in a small town in Colorado almost 150 years later. Happy Holidays to all!
Rick

[BMW]

I have a relatively rare 14k American pocket watch that has some nice engraving on the cuvette. It was presented to a State Assembly Speaker in 1897 by his associates in the Assembly. My fear regarding this, and other similarly insribed watches, is that, even when acquired through legitimate means, these watches could have been stolen (Or could be claimed to have been stolen by heirs of estates who feel somehow cheated.), and the watch could ultimately be confiscated without compesation. Has anyone every had this happen to them? Feel free to email me personally with responses.

P.S. I have no guilty conscience. It's just that I had thought about contacting the family but the above revelation prevented me from doing so. I purchased my watch through an antique dealer and have a receipt.

[Jon Hanson]

Brian,

My rule of thumb is to always either pay by check or get a bonefide receipt, OR BOTH. ANYTHING that smells "stolen" I WILL NOT GO NEAR!

BUT, remember, to claim something stolen there would need to be a police theft report! Many thousands of watches "might" have been stolen at one time or another during, say for American ones, the past 150 years or so depending on date of manufacture. One of the problems with stolen goods is that authorities across the land don't necessarily cross reference "hot sheets" (stolen items lists), so thousands items go undetected. Also, many stolen items today get pawned-after they "come out of pawn", try to track them!

Merry Christmas.

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator

[BMW]

Hi Jon,
Thanks for your response. I never really had any indication that the watch was stolen and it was proudly dispayed in a very large antique mall in Central California. This doesn't stop me from being a bit paranoid about it. But I suppose there's not much in the world that would curb me paranoia. You'd be paranoid too if they were after you :wink:.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and a Happy Holidays to all.
BMW

[doug sinclair]

Listers,

A friend purchased a genuine, bonafide, real, Patek Phillipe ladie's watch at a garage sale several years ago. It was in decent shape, but had been used as the blue "lapis" dial had faded noticeably. His interest in the watch led him to send the serial number to Patek to find out what he could about the watch. Voila! About 6 weeks later, comes a knock on the door. It is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police! They were investigating the watch and its present owner as the watch had been reported stolen from a retail jewellery store in Germany in the early 1960s. My friend is born and bred Canadian, and was in the third grade when the watch was stolen, so they had no axe to grind with him. They took the address at which the garage sale had been held to find the woman long gone! Needless to say, my friend no longer owns the Patek!

Regards,
Doug S.

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[Hatman]

Hey! Who hi-jacked my thread?

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Regards,
Carl "Hatman" Schultz

My Pocketwatch Collection (http://www.intermodalsoftware.com/pktwatch.htm)