various newby questions

[phh]

i recently purchased a burlington special "railroad watch" 19 jewels, ser.#2672947. i think i got a pretty good watch for a fair price, but i'm curious as to whether it was ever really considered railroad grade. also, can it be dated using illinois serial numbers? in other words, as i understand it, the watch was made by illinois. are the serial numbers in the sequence of illinois numbers?

as i was showing off my antique watch to my father, he mentioned that he had a bunch of old watches that had belonged to various ancestors. he is not a collector, just happened to have some. i never even knew about them. one is jos'h johnson, liverpool, which may be pretty interesting, based on what i have read on this site. what should i look for in determining what it is? would "liverpool windows" be enough to verify it as english? i gather that english would be more interesting than swiss.

there is another one that is marked "jn. burke of dublin". has anyone heard of him?

there is a rockford, 82707. can't find a serial number list, but it seems pretty low. maybe it is pretty old?

there is also a small waltham 200944462, from 1917, as far as i can tell. it is maked "riverside a." i guess that is a movement grade. is level of quality would it be? it has 19 jewels.

sorry for the long post. thanks in advance to anyone who responds.

[phh]

i recently purchased a burlington special "railroad watch" 19 jewels, ser.#2672947. i think i got a pretty good watch for a fair price, but i'm curious as to whether it was ever really considered railroad grade. also, can it be dated using illinois serial numbers? in other words, as i understand it, the watch was made by illinois. are the serial numbers in the sequence of illinois numbers?

as i was showing off my antique watch to my father, he mentioned that he had a bunch of old watches that had belonged to various ancestors. he is not a collector, just happened to have some. i never even knew about them. one is jos'h johnson, liverpool, which may be pretty interesting, based on what i have read on this site. what should i look for in determining what it is? would "liverpool windows" be enough to verify it as english? i gather that english would be more interesting than swiss.

there is another one that is marked "jn. burke of dublin". has anyone heard of him?

there is a rockford, 82707. can't find a serial number list, but it seems pretty low. maybe it is pretty old?

there is also a small waltham 200944462, from 1917, as far as i can tell. it is maked "riverside a." i guess that is a movement grade. is level of quality would it be? it has 19 jewels.

sorry for the long post. thanks in advance to anyone who responds.

[Kent]

Hi pph:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

Waltham Riverside: There's one too many digits in the serial number, 200944462. Would you please confirm the number.

The American Waltham Watch Co. (Waltham, MA) had its origins in the 1850's. It was the first successful company in America to manufacture watches in mass production using machinery to make identical (or at least, near identical) parts. Over the next hundred years or so of its existence, its output of jeweled watches (over 34 million) was only exceeded by one other company, the National Watch Co. at Elgin, IL. Commonly referred to as "Waltham," the company made a full line of watches ranging from modest, affordable watches to some of the finest watches made in this country. An 1884 article on the American Watch Co. (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/walthampage.html) is available on Greg Frauenhoff website.

You can find out some basic facts about your Waltham watch by entering the serial number on the movement (the "works") in the field on the NAWCC Information Storage - Waltham Serial Number Data Base (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/LookupSN.asp) (don't use any commas). There is also a Glossary (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/Glossary.htm) of the terms provided by the serial number lookup. Should the date not be listed there, this Waltham Production Date (http://www.oldwatch.com/walthamdate.html) chart is a means for determining the approximate production date.

Catalog Information for your Waltham Riverside, can be seen online on page W4 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.com, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

The lever-set version of the 19-jewel, 16-size Waltham Riverside was widely accepted for railroad service.


Burlington Special:
The Burlington Watch Co., of Chicago, IL, was a mail-order sales operation. Almost all of the watches were made by the Illinois Watch Co. and privately-labeled for Burlington. A very small few were made by Henry Moser of Switzerland. Apparently these were only sold in Canada, as they seem to have all been originally furnished in Canadian-made cases. Burlington's Canadian office was in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Burlington seems to have started up around 1908-1910 and lasted until about 1923-1924. For about the first ten years, Burlington sold mostly 19-jewel watches, a lot of which were marketed as the "Burlington Special." The 1912 ad at the first link shows the classic open-face "Burlington Special" while the hunting-case model is shown in the second link:
elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1912/m_05_burlington_special.html

elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1911/m_12_burlington_special_hc.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.com, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Its difficult to know whether to call these watches Burlington Special's or just plain Burlington's. Burlington marketed their 19-jewel watch as the Burlington Special watch, but the only place that the "Burlington Special" marking appeared was on the dial. Thus the question arises, is a "Burlington Special" fitted with a different dial still a "Burlington Special"?

Burlington advertised heavily in the Railroad Brotherhood Journals (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/1/5/0/1501050321/1501050321_1919_Nov_21J_LR.jpg?ts=42483045&key=D3CC8C48B4690A58CD819E2C51C8D832&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fnawcc-mb.infopop.cc%2Feve%2Fubb.x%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F250105 0321%2F1919_Nov_21J_LR.jpg), although only a portion of the railroads seem to have accepted Illinois-Burlington watches for railroad time service. To quote from page 71 of "American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide," William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1985 (still in print - see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)), Burlington Watch Co. watches were accepted in railroad time service by many railroads, notably the Union Pacific, until the early 1940’s.


Rockford serial number 82707:
Records are sketchy for this early Rockford watch. Pictures would be helpful in determining the quality of the movement. Larry Jones has written up a useful article on Image Posting (http://www.larjones.com/data/imagehelp.html), which may be helpful.

Or, when you click on the Reply button, at the lower right-hand corner of the bottom post in a thread, the Reply To: box that opens has a text box. There is an "Upload an image" link just below the text box, on the left-hand side. Clicking upon the "Upload an image" link will open a field that allows you to select a picture file to attach to your post. Use the Browse button to navigate to the location in which the picture file resides on your disk drive and select it. Since this only permits one picture per reply, you can reply once for each picture.

If you have a problem posting the picture(s), you can attach it (them) to an e-mail to me (you can get my email address by clicking on my name in the upper left-hand corner of this post and viewing my Public Profile) and I'll post it (them) for you.

Its also helpful if you can post all the markings that are on the movement (the "works") in case they can't be seen in the picture(s).

Somebody else is going to have to help you with your English watches.

Good luck,

[phh]

i will double check the number on the waltham. it's easy to add one or skip one. these watches are not in my possesion. probably this weekend i will look at them again with a better idea of the details to look for. i just wrote down what seemed important and then looked for a site where i could get some info (this one). the waltham is really thin. not much bigger than 2 half collars stacked up. the one marked "jn. burke of dublin" also has a number on it, 10082, which i forgot to mention in the last post. thanks for the help. i will get try to get some pictures too.

[phh]

2 half dollars, not 2 half collars.

[Don Dahlberg]

I think Kent missed one of your questions. Yes the Illinois made Burlingtons used the Illinois serial numbers. Your number is listed as a 16 size, lever set, open face, 19 jewel, model 9, grade 106, Burlington Watch Co. Most of this you already knew. This dates the watch at approximately 1915.

Don

[phh]

okay. i looked at these watches again. took some pictures too, but i have to wait for them. still using film. i hope they come out. i looked at them more closely and can describe them more accurately. not sure what the best way to do it is. i will make a separate post for each watch. i hope that works ok.

[phh]

btw, a lot of these watches don't work at all and i'm sure all of them need some attention. how would i go about finding someone to work on them? i am in maryland. in the baltimore area.

[Kent]

Watches that are carried daily need to be cleaned and oiled at regular intervals. Railroad time service rules varied, but requirements for cleaning on a basis of once every year and a half were typical for railroaders at the turn of the century. By the mid-1920’s this was extended to two year intervals.

The 1897 "Sears, Roebuck and Co., Inc. Catalogue No. 104," Chicago, IL, 1897, reprinted by Chelsea House, Philadelphia, PA, 1968 had this to say on page 371:

"We Guarantee for Five Years All the movements sold by us. This does not refer to the life of the movement, but that we will for five years from date of purchase, correct free of charge any fault which may occur from defective material or workmanship. Any well made movement will run a lifetime if properly cared for.
"Remember That your watch should not run longer than one and one-half years without having the old oil cleaned off and fresh oil supplied. This must be done at the expense of the purchaser.
"The balance wheel of all modern watches makes 18,000 beats or revolutions per hour; 432,000 per day, or 157,788,000 per year. An engine or sewing machine will be oiled several times per day, but we have known people to carry a watch for ten years without having it cleaned or fresh oil applied.
"Usually, a movement thus treated is of no value, being entirely worn out. Take good care of your watch if you wish it to perform its duty properly, for it is a very delicate machine. Our charge for cleaning and oiling is 75 cents. The regular retail price is $1.50."

Watch cleaning and oiling costs a bit more today than it did a hundred years ago. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
<span class="ev_code_brown">www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html</span>
<span class="ev_code_blue">To view, go to the </span><span class="ev_code_brown">Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page</span> <span class="ev_code_blue">at</span> <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.com</span>, <span class="ev_code_blue">then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on </span>'Go'.

Also, Ed Ueberall, of The Escapement (http://members.aol.com/stdwatch) has put together some notes on the Use And Care of Your Vintage Watch (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/carefeed.txt) that should be helpful.