Can Anyone help me pick from the two? [Archive] - National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Message Board

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Coin Silver

09-26-2006, 04:16 PM

I recently got interested in Size 18 coin silver pocket watch made before 1880 but the pickings were silm.
However on ebay i found these 2:
The first being a 18s Illinois that actually has a silverode case, but seems to be older and is a keywind (a plus)
http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-18-SIZE-ILLINOIS-COLUMBIA-EARL...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-18-SIZE-ILLINOIS-COLUMBIA-EARLY-CIRCA-1876_W0QQitemZ160033115285QQihZ006QQcategoryZ10308 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

OR:

a 1880 Elgin Coin silver Hunter face too

http://cgi.ebay.com/Elgin-Natl-Watch-18-sz-Lever-Coin-S...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Elgin-Natl-Watch-18-sz-Lever-Coin-Silver-HC-825818-NR_W0QQitemZ250032464236QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10302QQ ssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

there Both the same price, but i would like some input from the pros before i take the dive.

p.s. I think the date of the illinois might be wrong, so any help will be welcome

Thank You Very much!

Coin Silver

09-26-2006, 04:16 PM

Wes

09-26-2006, 05:17 PM

I have not scrutinized these 2 auctions, but did give them a glance.
A couple of quick notes:
The Illinois in Not in a Keywind case, so we know it is not original;
The Elgin is in a Hunter Case, which many find more desireable. Also, the bow guards are a plus as well, and the seller claims it is in a coin case. However, the photos aren't very clear, so I can't tell the condition of the dial, case, or movement.

Oliver Mundy

09-26-2006, 10:59 PM

The Illinois case may in fact be original after all. This model (Model 3) was basically stem-wound but retained a keywind facility for emergencies. Mine, no. 139360, is identical and has the same dial. However, I believe the date is four years too early. Mine was also sold as an 1876 watch, so that it is probable that both sellers were using an obsolete reference source.

Oliver Mundy.

StanJS

09-26-2006, 11:32 PM

A couple of comments...

1) If the the number of jewels is of interest, the Elgin is 7J and the Illinois looks to be 13J (?). Like my wife, I am a fan of jewels.

2) If money is of interest, The Elgin ad states that it runs and recommends a cleaning. Look at upwards of another $100 for that. The Illinois states that it has been "FULLY SERVICED - CLEANED, LUBED AND REGULATED!" The price is the same. The cost is NOT!

You don't say why you are buying this watch: collecting or daily use. This would also affect your buying decision. If collection is your reason, consider rarity and condition. You'll need to do some research in that area.

Cheers,
Stan

Coin Silver

09-27-2006, 02:28 AM

I plan on usin the pocket watch for everyday use. I would like rarity in a watch but my budget doesnt allow it so it doesn't really matter to me. I do like the elgin but I cannot tell if it has a glass crystal, if it even has a crystal at all.

Thats another problem can you tell if it has a crystal, and if so is it glass?

Wes

09-27-2006, 04:16 AM

I have not scrutinized these 2 auctions, but did give them a glance.

I wondered if was a transistional model. The photos don't show up large enough on my screen to tell if it had a square cannon pinion.

Here is a snapshot of the Illinois Info, from the old ref ::Illinois Database CD by Dr Russ Snyder:
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/mbimages/illin_141866.jpg

I can't tell if the Elgin has a crystal, and certainly can't tell if it plastic or glass. You should contact the seller.

If you are going to run the watch, it needs to be professionally cleaned and oiled. Running a watch with dried up oils can damage the watch.

Fred Hansen

09-27-2006, 04:26 AM

eBay usually has between 5000 and 10000 items at auction in the pocketwatch category at any time. There is a whole lot of stuff you won't be interested in to sift through, but at any time there will be many many early watches in coin cases so there is no reason to buy before you are ready.

Why not take a while looking at a LOT of eBay items and in this time improve your search techniques and get a good idea for just what you would like to find and what can fit into the price range you have in mind.

I think you may be surprised by how much selection you really do have, even at a budget.

Fred

doug sinclair

09-27-2006, 05:03 AM

Wes,

I have an open-faced Illinois model 3, and two hunter-cased model 2s, all transitional stem/key wind, and none of them is equipped with the square (key set type) cannon pinion. My model 1 (key-wind/key-set) hunter-cased model does have the square cannon pinion. Have you ever seen a transitional (stem/key wind) model with a square cannon pinion?

StanJS

09-27-2006, 05:42 AM

For comparison from the Elgin website:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Search Results For "825818"

Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
825818 820001 30000 1881 6* 18s hfg2ls 7j

grade total runs first yr last yr class size code jewels Adj/name
----- ----- ----- -------- ------- ----- ---- ------ ------ ----------
6 193000 7 1879 1884 6 18s hfg2ls 7j

(*) notes on grade 6: slow train (4.5 bps)

Class 6: 18s HC fp
6 193000 made lever model 2-4 7j gilded slow train (4.5 bps)
7 277000 made key model 1 7j gilded slow train (4.5 bps)
96 566000 made lever model 2-4 7j gilded
97 323000 made key model 1 7j gilded
171 22000 made lever model 2-4 7j
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, 7J Elgins are slightly more common than dirt. For the model in question 193,000 were made. For rarity, that makes the Illinois watch the choice hands down. Plus, the Illinois is ready to wear.

The only reason to buy the Elgin is the case. It is cool to pull out an old watch the size of your fist, press the stem, and have it open like a giant clam ready to snap up a shark. You'll also walk with a pronounced limp and list to the watch side. ;-) When I was actively collecting in the late 1970s, for a while my everyday watch was a KW/KS Waltham PS Bartlett 15J coin silver HC from the 1880s - so I know what I am talking about.

The advice to hold your fire is good. There are other sources besides eBay but they take more work.

I just bought a Waltham ER Robbins 1877 model 18s 13J coin silver OF case for $50. It would need roughly $100 to have someone put it right. That's still less than the Shugart minimum value. I plan to get some tools and this is going to be the first watch I perform open heart surgery on.

Cheers,
Stan

Wes

09-27-2006, 06:25 AM

Doug wrote: I have an open-faced Illinois model 3, and two hunter-cased model 2s, all transitional stem/key wind, and none of them is equipped with the square (key set type) cannon pinion. My model 1 (key-wind/key-set) hunter-cased model does have the square cannon pinion. Have you ever seen a transitional (stem/key wind) model with a square cannon pinion?

Doug,
I have never noticed an Illinois transistional with a sqaure cannon pinion. I have see the Rockford lever sets with a square cannon pinion filed down to not protrude past the minute hand.

I hope I didn't imply that there should be a square hub on the Illinois. Last night, I was looking for a square hub to see if it really was a Keywind, as described. Of course, it may have just been easier to look it up like I did this morning. :redface:

Kent

09-27-2006, 08:32 AM

Hi Coin Silver:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

Just because a seller claims that a watch has been "FULLY SERVICED - CLEANED, LUBED AND REGULATED!" that doesn't mean that it has been properly serviced, cleaned, lubed and regulated. I have no knowledge about this seller. The watch might have been serviced as well as could be achieved.

On the other hand, there is a well-known eBay watch seller who once told me that if he doesn't claim that the watches he sells have been recently serviced, it seriously erodes the winning bid values. So, he runs the movements through an ultrasonic cleaner, without disassembling them. Although the movements end up looking nice and the seller can make semi-truthful statements about service, these are not watches that you will want to run for any length of time without having them properly serviced.

You may consider questioning the seller, of any watch that you might buy, about just what they do to service a watch.

Coin Silver

09-27-2006, 11:49 AM

I have decided to pick neither of the two. I decided to wait it out. Thanks for all the feedback.

I wouldn't mind to get a Rockford, but I don't really have that much info about them. So do you guys have any input?

And I found a illinois with a serial number of 153317 and couldn't find any info on it, and I might like to have it after some info.

Thanks for all the great help

Tom Huber

09-27-2006, 12:34 PM

Coin Silver, I don't buy on e-bay. I am one that likes to inspect a watch before buying. In the past 2 years, I bought an Illinois 11J Columbia transitional watch in a silveroid case in good running order and I paid $35 for it. Mine is in better shape than the one on e-bay. This past June at the NAWCC National, I bought a nice, running 7J Elgin in a coin silver HC and I got it for $50. Neither of these watches needed service.

Early American watches in coin silver cases are not rare. They are out there and at much lower prices than the two you see on e-bay.

Tom