L&R cleaning machine

[robert]

Hi All,
I just purchased a cleaning machine and have seen so many cleaning agents out on the market, I was wondering if anyone had any feedback on to which ones are the best to use. There are rinses out there as well, and being new to this hobby, I just don't have a clue as to what to buy.

The machine I bought appears to have 3 areas for cleaning and 1 for drying.

Could anyone clue me in as to how all of this would work?

Thanks,
Bob

[robert]

Hi All,
I just purchased a cleaning machine and have seen so many cleaning agents out on the market, I was wondering if anyone had any feedback on to which ones are the best to use. There are rinses out there as well, and being new to this hobby, I just don't have a clue as to what to buy.

The machine I bought appears to have 3 areas for cleaning and 1 for drying.

Could anyone clue me in as to how all of this would work?

Thanks,
Bob

[john brendel]

Hi Robert,
The first jar contains the cleaning solution, the second and third jars contain a first and second rinse solution respectively. As my second rinse solution becomes slightly discolored it becomes my first rinse solution and I then put fresh rinse solution in the third jar. The drying chamber is used last; spin the basket slowly with the heater on. I always lift the basket out of the solution and position it just above the solution level but below the upper rim of the jar. In this position, I spin it for a minute or so before I move it to the next jar. This prevents dripping when moving from one container to the next. Don't over use the cleaning solution or it will begin to leave shellac like deposits on your the parts. I would say, on the average after ten watches you should replace the cleaning solution. Of course it depends on how dirty your watches were to begin with. Distribute the parts carefully in the basket and put the pallet fork, balance and hairspring in individual compartments. Jewel screws are so small that they can sometimes pass through the mesh so I leave them out. I am still looking for the best cleaning and rinse combination. Maybe someone else can give advice on this topic.
Best Regards, John

[doug sinclair]

Hi Robert,

I use an ultrasoic machine to do my cleaning, with small parts in small baskets, and big parts strung on wires. I then use the L & R centrifugal machine to finish the job. The first jar is empty and I use that to spin the cleaning solution from the ultrasonic off the parts. The second and third jars I use to rinse, and the last chamber to dry. Some folks find the centrifugal machine fine for cleaning as well. The solution must be kept at a level ABOVE the inmpeller on the motor arbor as its purpose is to force the solutions to circulate through the cleaning basket.

Small parts capsules (baskets) are available from many suppliers, and while a bit expensive, they are useful for cleaning easily lost small parts.

I use L & R NO FOME for the cleaner, and
L & R No. 3 for rinse. These solutions are NOT COMPATIBLE with water, even in microscopic amounts such as moist fingers. So if you use these solutions, don't get even the sightest TRACE of water anywhere near them or you'll ruin the solution. You won't know the solution is ruined until you examine the parts of a newly cleaned watch. There will be CRUD all over them which is TOUGH to get off. This might be the phenomenon that John describes, because I use my solutions for DOZENS of watches quite effectively and with no CRUD problems. L & R themselves used to indicate on their labels some years ago that discoloration of the cleaner in no way interferes with cleaning capability. Rinses should be refreshed more often as John suggests.

Regards,
Doug S.

------------------

[Steve Maddox]

Robert,

Just to add to what John and Doug said above, before pouring your cleaning and rinsing solutions into your jars, first be sure to thoroughly clean the jars with a strong ammoniated cleaner, such as 409, Fantastic, Mr. Clean, Parsons Ammonia, or any similar product. When you have the jars as clean as possible, rinse them vigorously, then allow them to air dry completely in a dust free place before filling them. You should not dry the jars with a towel or rag, because doing that will leave behind lint particles, which will end up being deposited into the watches you clean!

When you do fill the jars, DO NOT fill them up all the way to the top! This is very important with any spinning type cleaning machine! If your machine is an L&R (and most are) you should fill the jars ONLY to the bottom of the "L&R" logo molded into the glass (if not L&R, then fill them about half way). By so doing, the basket will completely submerge in the fluid, but more importantly, there will be room left in the top of the jar to spin off the remaining fluid before moving the basket to the next jar. To do this, stop the motor, raise the basket above the level of the fluid by about half an inch, lock the motor in place on the center post, then slowly start the motor rotating again to allow the excess fluid to sling off inside the jar. This minimizes cross contamination, which is what dirties up the rinses.

Like Doug, I also use two separate cleaning machines, one ultrasonic, and one spinning type. I like the cleaning action of the ultrasonic, but if I had to choose only one or the other, I'd have to say that the spinning type is better overall. While the ultrasonic action definitely assists the cleaning, the vast majority of the "work" is done by the solvents in the cleaning fluids, and not by the action of the machine.

When I disassemble a watch to be cleaned, I place all the parts into the L&R baskets, then place the entire assembly in a McKenna ultrasonic for five to ten minutes, depending on how dirty the movement is. When the movement has finished in the McKenna, I remove the basket, and attach it to the impeller of the spinning machine. As I see it, the ultrasonic loosens up the dirt, and the spinning machine flushes it away, and of course, rinses it.

At this point, my process differs a bit from Doug's, as I use cleaning fluid in my first jar, just as if I was beginning the cleaning process in the spinning machine alone. I run the movement in that for a moment or two before spinning off the excess, and running it through the rinses. I actually use three rinses, which is probably not really necessary, but it makes me feel better. This requires me to swap out one jar in the process, but it really isn't all that much trouble. Like John, when my final rinse gets a little cloudy, I dispose of my first rinse, clean and dry the jar it was in thoroughly, then make that my final rinse jar, and rotate each of the others to the next previous position.

The solutions I recommend are L&R "Extra Fine Watch Cleaning Solution," and L&R "Ultrasonic Watch Rinsing Solution." These are available from S. LaRose, Jules Borel, and virtually any other horological supply houses. I've found no suitable substitutes for the cleaning solution, but if you want to save money and shipping costs on the rinses, pure (high flash) naphtha available from any paint store will do just as well. Another good commonly available rinsing solution is "Varsol," which was recommended by Rolex in their repair manuals a few years ago. The disadvantage about Varsol is that it's hard to find, and you may have to go to a specialty petroleum shop get it.

In ALL cases, the various watch cleaning and rinsing solutions are petroleum based, and SHOULD NOT be used in confined areas, or where the vapors can be exposed to sparks or open flames. If at all possible, operate the cleaning machine in a room by itself, with an exhaust fan to vent the fumes and vapors outside.

I hope this helps, but if you have any additional questions or problems, please feel free to post as often as you like!


------------------
Steve Maddox
VP, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[Steve Maddox]

Chuck,

Robert, the original poster of this topic, e-mailed me personally, and asked part of the same questions you did, which no doubt, should have been addressed in some of the replies above, but were not. The following is a part of my reply to Robert:

------------------
As for the speed, that depends on the watch, but I think you'll be able to tell about how fast to run it once you actually experiment with it. There's no harm in running it too slow, but the mechanical action of the fluid does assist the cleaning, and it's action will not be as great when very slow speeds are used.

On the other hand, if you crank the speed up too much, you will see the fluids being pushed up near the tops of the jars, and you certainly don't want to blow it out, which is entirely possible! I guess a "correct" speed causes the fluid to rise along the side of the jar by about an inch and a half. You should see small bubbles start to form in the solution, which again, actually assists the cleaning action.

One thing I didn't mention before is that when spinning off the excess fluid, be careful that you don't allow the fluid beneath to start sloshing around so much that it contacts the basket. It's easily possible for the air generated by the spinning basket to make waves in the fluid that can reach the bottom of the basket.
------------------

I've never used a Marshall "Little Giant," but it sounds like they're something less than ideal machines. On the L&R Masters, the motor speed is completely variable.

As for any machine with an automatic reversing system (and for manually reversing the direction of the motor as well) be very careful not to allow the fouth wheel pinions to poke through the bottom of the cleaning basket. Many perfectly good pinions have been broken this way!


The impeller on the machine I use actually looks like a propellor, and I normally run the machine in "forward" while it's in the cleaning and rinsing solutions, but in "reverse" while it's in the dryer so as to help draw the hot air from the heating element through the basket. I occasionally reverse the direction of the machine while in the solutions, but I always stop the motor first before changing directions, rather than just throwing it from forward into reverse. That jostles the parts around in the baskets, and can cause things to become scratched and/or broken.

Perhaps combined with the information above, this will serve to answer most of your questions!

SM

[Steve Maddox]

Hi again Chuck!

Sorry about the misunderstanding! I had the impression your machine just had two fixed speeds -- too fast, and too slow!

The danger to the 4th wheel pivots comes mostly during the rapid rotation to sling off the superfluous fluid before switching jars. If the long portion of the 4th wheel pivot is sticking through the mesh of the basket, and the basket is rotated really fast, or has its direction changed rapidly, the momentum and/or centrifugal force acting on the movement can cause the pivot to bend, or break off entirely.

I do clean hairsprings, balances, pallets, etc., all in the machine. About the only things I don't clean in the machine are dials and cases. Of course, in order to do a good job of cleaning, it is ALWAYS necessary to remove all cap jewels, as well as the spring barrel, barrel cover, and mainspring. Unless there is some particular reason, such as them having cap jewels, or a piece of lint wrapped around a pivot, etc., I usually don't remove the train wheels.

In watches with spring loaded jewel settings (such as Incabloc, etc.) I have found it best NOT to remove the balance bridge or wheel, nor to loosen the hairspring for ordinary cleaning. Jewels of this type come off from the outside, and when they are removed so that the staff pivots perfectly open to the solution, there is usually no good reason to remove the balance. Besides, in "adjusted" watches, some of the adjustments can be ruined just by unmounting and remounting the hairspring, and it's best not to do that unless there's a good reason.

The only other precaution I would recommend is to always demagnetize every watch you work on before you do anything else (unless it's an electric watch, which needs magnetism in certain parts!). This will prevent any magnetism in the steel parts from attracting metal particles in the cleaning solution. I've seen balance staffs and things like that go in relatively clean, and come out fuzzy with metal particles, which were attracted magnetically from the solution! This doesn't just happen with dirty solution -- often enough metal particles will come out of the watch you're cleaning at the time that even if the fluid is being used for its very first time, any loose particles will immediately be drawn to the magnetized parts.

If you have any other questions, please continue to post them! With all the stuff I've been forgetting to mention, and all the good questions you've been asking, sooner or later, we're going to have a good article going here!

SM

[Steve Maddox]

In the February, 1998 edition of the "Horological Times," the monthly publication of the American Watchmakers' Institute, there is an excellent article by Gary Crighton, entitled "In search of the Best Watch Oils." This particular article is the first section of a four-part article, and it happens that it specifically addresses a part of the question you asked.

In this article, Mr. Crighton, who has experimented extensively in the subject, reports: "The [L&R] Extra Fine does a [great] job of cleaning, and 99% of the time it is not necessary to peg out the jewels prior to cleaning, but it does require the rinse be changed more frequently. The [L&R] III Ultrasonic Watch Cleaning Solution will do just about as good a job as the Extra Fine, as long as the jewels are pegged out prior to cleaning in the machine. Experience has shown me that both solutions will clean about 10 watches before requiring fresh solution."

Prior to reading this article, I had been using the L&R III, but soon after, I decided to try the "Extra Fine" (#566), which gave me excellent results, as described, and I have been using it ever since.

As for the idea of removing screws, etc., that might have been necessary with the cleaning and rinsing solutions available many years ago, but the solutions available today have advanced light years beyond those. When you really think about it, it might be possible, but it probably wouldn't even be desirable to remove ALL of the parts and screws from a movement in any event. Consider the balance screws (usually about 16 per wheel, all of which are carefully arranged, and many of which are of varying weights), the jewel screws (of which most 21 jewel pocket watches usually have 19 or more), the jewels and their settings themselves, etc. In short, if you made a practice of removing every part from a watch to clean it, you would almost certainly be doing more harm than good.

I'm all for disassembling a watch to the extent necessary to do a good job of cleaning, but everything can be carried to extremes, and too much of a good thing, is a bad thing! As for inspection, there's nothing like a good stereo microscope, but that's another topic!

SM

[David Melcher]

Just a note to add. I too have a Marshall machine like Chuck's as well as 3 old L&R's. I prefer this machine because of it's washing machine agitator action and the fact that it uses square glass jars instead of round. The square jars help prevent the solution from spinning with the basket and combined with the back and forth automatic agitator action you get that nice bubble action going clear to the bottom of the jar even at slow to moderate speeds. The dryer is also a step above since it has a blower to force the heated air into the drying chamber. I was also fortunate enough to find another of these machines to keep around for spare parts.

[Ian Timshel]

Hi all.
I've been having some grief with L&R extra fine for several years now. It deposits a gooey dark brown, "devolves in alcohol" crap, as it's nearing the end of it's life expectancy.

Thanks to the help of a friend, who alerted me to this thread, and assisted in a fairly intense investigation of the problem I'd like to offer some of what was revealed.

The story starts with me sending a sample to L&R and not being given the time of day. They were convinced I had somehow contaminated my solution with automotive transmission oil.

I've covered all the bases over the years with different batch lots of "Extra Fine". I've cleaned and observed all elements regarding the basket handling, jar cleaning and machine, motor head shield etc. until I'm sick to death of the dreaded "goop."

Now I think I have, (thanks friend!) a reasonable alternative. But first a few notes on what has transpired on this thread previously.

The little bubbles is where I call the agitation about right too.

Fourth wheels in the cleaning basket are a close call. I don't put the finest ones in the machine, preferring not to take the chance of a bent or broken pivot. A pair of Dumont #8's are fine but it is certainly not better to tempt fate. Repivoting the little darlings can be..... trying.

I dismantle even the winding parts. I was trained that way after growing up in a production shop and not dismantling much of anything. Many of you will remember Joseph Rugole. He taught me things my Dad's production shop would never have taken the time to. That said, mine is not a production shop and I love my "come back" rates, so I'll stay with the old dismantle and peg out all the holes and use pith and peg on all the escapement bits.

Can you still buy the French "orange wood" peg in North America? after many years of missing my source, a friend sent me a bundle from France, so I know it's still out there.

Steve, I'll have to differ with you on the point of suggesting demagnetising all mechanical watches. I think this is asking for trouble. I prefer to use steel tweezers well demagnetised and then I can tell easily which parts need attention with the demagnetiser. I have come to this approach with most things in this art. I rarely do any more invasive action than is called for. I think this ends up being good practice for any conserver. It is just as easy to magnetise with a "demagnetiser" than it is to demagnetise. I grew up in a production trade shop so I know what it takes to cut the corners necessary to get the bills paid. Many don't have the luxury of taking as much time to dismantle. I offer only respect.

I think I have found the ingredients list for L&R Extra Fine watch cleaner:

60-70% Stoddard Solvent (aka Varsol)
15-20% VM&P Naphtha (aka lighter fluid, or fuel)
5-10% oleic acid
<5% isopropanol amine
<5% 2-propoxyethanol
<5% ammonium hydroxide

This was researched on a data base that I didn't have access to personally, but I believe the source to be solid.

The fellow that helped with much of my investigation into alternate solutions for my "goop" problem suggested the following might be a satisfactory alternate to the L&R Extra Fine. I have found sources locally for laboratory grades of the following chemicals which has helped. I have yet to run out of my current supply of L&R and am too cheap to toss it. ;^)

50:50 isopropyl alcohol (91%) and Household Ammonia.
to this solution add 10% oleic acid (made from olive oil).

To rinse,

75:25 Varsol and VM&P Naphtha

It's my understanding that this will be slightly less ammoniated than L&R #1, and the rinse is
the same as L&R #3.

VM&P Naphtha stands for "Varnish Maker's and Painter's Naphtha". It is
the same thing as cigarette lighter fluid. It is usually very clean
and dries quickly without any film. The advantage to it is it burns
very cool! For instance, if you dipped your hand in it, and lit it
off, you would not feel any heat. It is what the idiots who "eat fire"
use.

Finding graded VM&P Naphtha was not easy. My literature says that Shell produces it. Their technical department should be able to steer anyone toward a local source.

I enjoy this board very much. I just wish I had more time to spend here.

Cheers! Ian.

N 49 12' 30"
W 96 53' 45"

"Where the only monopoly we support has a Boardwalk and a Baltic Avenue."

[Steve Maddox]

Hi again guys!

There are a few things from my previous messages above that I think could benefit from some clarification, and I'm going to attempt to do that now.

First, the procedure to which I am referring whereby I leave the balance, etc. in place, while removing the shock-mounted jewels, is currently recommended by Rolex and most of the other better Swiss companies, but it is only intended for watches that are in the shop for "routine maintenance." I wouldn't advocate such a procedure with a vintage watch, which had been oiled in the distant past with an animal or mineral oil, then allowed to sit ever since without service!

There is a HUGE difference between "changing the oil" in an "everyday wearing" watch, and cleaning and restoring a vintage watch that's been out of commission for an extended period of time. I occasionally encounter old watches that have oil dried in them that no amount of machine cleaning will remove, but for me, this is by far the exception rather than the rule.

As for the trouble with the Extra Fine solution leaving dark colored spots "as it's nearing the end of it's life expectancy," in my experiences, this only happens long after the point when it really should have been changed! As mentioned previously, I've had good success with this solution, but like everything else, it can't be expected to last forever. Besides just using it many times, however, another thing that contributes to its potential for "spotting" is allowing it to become too hot. This is very easy to do in an ultrasonic machine, and it will cause it to darken prematurely and greatly hasten its demise every time.

I agree with Chuck's observation that a small amount of cleaning solution is drawn into the spaces between the bridges and plates, but for all practical purposes, this is completely removed in the rinse. Consider the viscosity of the rinsing solutions, which are so thin that they can hardly be poured onto a rag without falling straight through and barely getting the rag wet! Essentially, the same thing happens with any remaining cleaning fluid in the watch; since the rinse is so much thinner than the cleaning fluid, it immediately penetrates to it, and rinses it out progressively through the various rinses.

Again, I personally use three rinses instead of the usual two, but I'm not sure that it's really necessary. One thing I do advocate, however, is to allow the rinses time to act --especially the last one or two! Leaving movements in the cleaning fluid too long can be harmful to them, but not so with the rinses. I usually run the movements in each rinse for at least five minutes, and I always sling off the fluid extremely thoroughly between the various solutions.

I hope this helps clear up any remaining questions and/or misunderstandings!

By the way, Ian, excellent post! I really appreciate your taking the time to share all that with us -- it's certainly food for thought!

SM

[Steve Maddox]

Ian,

I almost forgot to ask, what type of demagnetizer are you using? It's not one of those old AC-DC types, is it? :biggrin:

As I see it, demagnetizing a watch is the least invasive procedure possible -- it can be accomplished virtually instantly, and it doesn't even require opening the case. I normally use a Magna Flux instantaneous demagnetizer, which has never failed to remove all traces of magnetism from anything I've used it on so far. I even tried it on a compass once, and it removed all traces of magnetism from that as well, which of course, rendered it completely useless! The literature with it claims it's 20 times as powerful as an ordinary coil type demagnetizer, and while I couldn't attest to the veracity of that, I can say that it's always worked very well for me.

Oh, one other thing that might be helpful; if you encounter a problem again with the "dreaded goop," it can be easily removed by a quick run through some fresh (ammoniated) #111 solution!

SM

[Ian Timshel]

Yes I'm still using the old style ac to demagnatise. I'm not sure how the one you are refering to works but I'm able to do what I need with the old one. Can you explain the technical differences?

The goop can certainly be cleaned with ammoniated solutions. I'm just sick of having to do it. Extra Fine is a great cleaner as long as you don't push it's life too long. I never use to have this problem with it but obviously something has changed.

What I've learned here is that I'm pushing the limits of the extra fine a way too far. Thanks for your posts.
Ian.

[Ian Timshel]

Thanks Chuck.
Sounds like I'm in the market for one of these little babies!
Great to be alive and still learning.
Ian.

[mikeh]

First of all, thanks to all of you for your GREAT contributions to this thread, and especially for your unselfish donation of time.

Ian - these things can be had pretty cheap and two of them are for sale right now on eBay.

I do have what is probably a simple question. I have an old Elimag by Watch Master and I'm wondering if there is any performance difference between it and the Magna Flux? I have had a [safe] peek inside mine and it appears to work exactly as Chuck described, but I know the Elimag is much older (or at least they look like it), so I am wondering if there is a technical difference.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Steve Maddox]

I was browsing through an old watchmakers' manual the other day, when I happened across something that made me think about this thread. The manual, "Practical Benchwork for Horologists," by Louis and Samuel Levin, is one of the best known and most respected works of all time on the subject. I'll tell you the copyright date after quoting a short passage, but in the mean time, try to guess when you think this passage may may have been written:

"The development of watch cleaning machines in recent years has progressed so far that any other method of cleaning watches may be considered obsolete. Laboratory tests have repeatedly demonstrated the superiority of machine cleaning over the hand process. It is no exaggeration to state that machine cleaning eliminates the use of pegwood ?? in almost every case. The tests have shown that such parts as pinions, hairsprings, pallets, mainsprings, etc., cannot possibly be cleaned as well in any other manner."

Any guesses as to the date? Would anyone be surprised if I said it was 1962? What about if I said it was actually 30 years earlier, in 1932? That's right, that passage was written nearly 70 years ago, in 1932!

Just thought y'all might be interested!

SM