Muckle Patent Date

[Larry Jones 98326]

I was looking over a Muckle last night and noticed that Shugart et al. show the patent date as April 3, 1888. The Elgin movement in mine, appearing original in all details, is listed as 1885, but when I looked very closely, I decided the patent year is actually 1883, not 1888. How convenient! But really, any of you that have one, please loupe the patent date and see if the last digit looks more like the "3" on April 3, than the "8" in 188?

Any agree, disagree?

[Larry Jones 98326]

I was looking over a Muckle last night and noticed that Shugart et al. show the patent date as April 3, 1888. The Elgin movement in mine, appearing original in all details, is listed as 1885, but when I looked very closely, I decided the patent year is actually 1883, not 1888. How convenient! But really, any of you that have one, please loupe the patent date and see if the last digit looks more like the "3" on April 3, than the "8" in 188?

Any agree, disagree?

[Larry Jones 98326]

Thanks Wayne, the stamping is not totally clear but that's what I thought, and the movement date fits more nicely now.

[Whit Joyner]

My 18 size Muckle says "E. A. Muckle -- 1882 Pat." It's coin silver and has the Rockford "R" in a shield in two places.
It also carries two different serial numbers, I suppose an error at the time it was made.

[Larry Jones 98326]

Wayne,

Book 21, page 40. The 8 and 3 in my case look very, very similar, I can see how this could very easily be an error in reading the number, I did so myself!

Whit,

Interesting, mine is also Rockford marked (once with name, once with shield), but Rockford might be slightly overstamped on earlier(?) Muckle markings. I suppose that Rockford bought the company, but don't know. Not all are Rockford marked, as you probably know. Serial number on mine is 28152

Larry

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry, et al.,

The Muckle cases were made by the North Western Watch Case Co. This firm was located in Rockford but was not, to my knowledge, directly connected with the Rockford Watch Co., although there may have been individuals who owned a piece of both. They were called "Climax" cases when new. I vaguely recall seeing a Muckle marked "North Western" and not "Rockford" but it's been a while. As for the patent date, I'm still looking for the copy of the abstract in my files.

The Muckle in my collection also has an Elgin in it (#1630966) that looks to be original. The patent date stamped in it looks like it could be either 1888 or 1883

As for the Northwestern case co., I think it turned into the Kenosha W. Case. Co. and then died (Kenosha cases are rather hard to find).

Greg

[Larry Jones 98326]

Greg,

Thanks for the info. So, your feeling is that the Rockford name and "R" shield refer to the town, not to Rockford Watch Co?

I used a loupe on the 8 - 3 question in my case, and was finally able to conclude that the final "8" on 1888 is definitely not closed, as are the other two.

I have another Muckle in the bank - I have to go there today, I'll take a look at it and report back.


Later, Larry

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry,

Yes, I think the "R" refers to the town not the watch co.

As for Whit's "1882 Pat." my guess is that it's a case made before the actual patent was granted. That is, Muckle may have submitted the pat. application in 1882 and was expecting it to be granted and cases with the design were being made in 1882, but the patent wasn't officially granted until spring 1883. There are other instances in old watches of items (e. g. patent regulators) being used before a patent application was actually submitted.

As for Northwestern/Kenosha, I'd like to retract my earlier comment. My recollection was in error. Without doing the digging, I think Kenosha derived from Blauer/Invisible hinge not Northwestern. Northwestern may have stayed in Rockford and made the later cases marked "Rockford Watch Co." (seen in 16s, 12s and 0s), but I don't have any evidence for this in my files.

Greg

[rrwatch]

I have two Muckle cases, marked as follows:
1. Rockford Coin with the "R" shield underneath. Pat'd April 3rd 1883 (I believe the last digit is a three, but looks very much as if it could be an eight) S/N 29669.
This case has a brsss center section and does not have provision for a lift spring and catch.
2. North Western Coin. E. A Muckle Pat. 1882.
This case has a lift spring and catch, and a coin silver center section. S/N 17536.
Hope this helps.

------------------
Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688

[Larry Jones 98326]

Thanks Ed,

I did check my other Muckle, which is case number 31645, marked Muckle with April 3, 1883 patent date inside back cover, and marked with "R" shield, Rockford, and Coin on front cover. Contains a Rockford mvmt number 183689.

Case 28152, described above, is marked the same except that all Muckle and Rockford markings are inside the front cover. The inside of the back cover has a serial number only.

I had several others that I sold some years back, my recollection is that neither was marked Muckle but I don't have any records.

From what Ed has added, sounds like the early cases may have been marked Northwestern, the later, Rockford?

[Greg Frauenhoff]

for the sake of data, my Rockford Muckle is #23203

[Greg Frauenhoff]

More data: this one was sitting on my desk (buried actually). The back cover has been cut out so I can't say whether it was marked "Rockford" or "Northwestern", however on the dust cover is E. A. Muckle Pat. 1882 which suggests that it may have been marked "Northwestern". Serial number of case is 21838. The Waltham mvt inside might be original (#1949535).

[Larry Jones 98326]

Yesterday I looked at a Muckle that I sold years ago, number 21849 (11 away from yours, Greg). Lid is marked "Northwestern", "Coin", and has the shield with "R" insignia inside. Dust cover marked Muckle and 1882 Patent.

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry,

Ain't numbers fun!

Here's a number, but it's not for a Muckle. It's an 18 size KW Northwestern Case with the #2518.

What does it all mean?????

Greg

[Larry Jones 98326]

Greg,

Be nice to know about how many Muckles were made. The range of numbers above would indicate at least 12,000 IF only Muckle cases were made in the serial range shown above. Big if..and based on my experience, I don't think there are 12,000 Muckle cases floating around.

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry,

I agree, knowing how many Muckle's were made would be neat. So what we need are more data points for both Muckle cases (ones marked either "Northwestern" or "Rockford") and non-Muckle cases similarly marked.

Anyone with another data point or two out there?

Greg

[rrwatch]

When I listed the serial numbers and markings of my two Muckle cases I also indicated two variations between them that, at least to me, were as interesting as ther differences in markings. The Rockford marked case had a brass center (revolving) section, while the North Western was silver. Also, the Rockford case had a lift spring and catch, the same as a regular hunting case; the North Western had no spring or catch, and had no milled out provision for either to have ever been installed.
I guess my question is, do ALL the "Rockford" cases have brass centers and contain a lift spring, and do ALL the "North Western" cases have silver centers and no provision for a lift spring? Could the other responders to this thread see how their cases are made and let us know?

------------------
Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Ed,

My "Rockford" Muckle has a silver center as does the other "mystery" one (probably Northwestern). I'll check out the lift spring situation soon.

Greg

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Ed,

#21838 (presumed "North Western") has a silver center (just a little engine turning around the edge), a provision for a lift spring, and gold hinges.

#23203 "Rockford has a silver center (elaborately engraved), a provision for a lift spring, and silver hinges.

On both the lift springs are broken, but the notch is there as is the small screw.

Greg

[Larry Jones 98326]

Ed,

Well, number 21849, lid marked "Northwestern", "Coin", with the shield with "R" (now, is that a Rockford mark, or not? If the town, why just the R?), and I don't think it had a brass center but I won't swear to it. I'm also pretty sure it had a lift spring, but I looked at it on Saturday along with 600 other watches so mush brain was my status. I will eventually see this watch again.

Number 28152 does have a brass center. The other is back in the bank, I'll report back next time I'm in there.

The markings do seem to show quite a bit of variation, and more serial numbers would be useful......

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry, et al.,

I was digging through my "files" and stuff and came across some more info on Northwestern. An udated tradecard (but probably before 4/3/83) shows a Climax reversible case that has a mvt inside which has a Rockford Watch Co. dial on it. However, the trade card states that the cases were for any 18s American full plate mvt. A later undated trade card (has the Apr. 3, 1883 patent date on it) shows a case but with a mvt that has an unsigned dial and indicated that Climax reversible cases are made for 18s Amer stem wind mvts and 16 size Elgin (which I think means any 16 size mvt of the era except the Waltham). In 1885, the Northwestern Watch Case Co. advertised that they were doing lots of case reapir. By 1890/91 or so, the Co. had changed it's name to Rockford Watch Case Co. and was heavily involved in watch case repair.

Greg

[Larry Jones 98326]

For the record, serial number 28152 houses a 16 size Elgin, number 1568741. I would need this side by side with my other Muckle to say for sure, but the cases might be the same outside dimensions.

Greg,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By 1890/91 or so,the Co. had changed it's name to Rockford Watch Case Co. and was heavily involved in watch case repair<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>......suggesting that Muckle reversible cases were not an economic success, perhaps? Could you elucidate the relationship between Northwestern, Climax, and Muckle.....?

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry,

Co. name originally Northwestern then changed to Rockford Watch Case Co. I don't know if the name change was precipitated by financial troubles or not, but the fact that Muckle cases are uncommon today certainly suggests that they were not a great success. In 1890/91 the Rockford Watch Case Co. still advertised that they made cases but claimed to have repaired a huge number of cases (120,000 or so, I need to double check) and were advertising for more such business.

"Climax" is the name that the Northwestern Watch Case Co. used for what we call today a "Muckle" case.

Greg

[Larry Jones 98326]

Greg,

Thanks. Makes you wonder what people were doing to their watch cases.......

Larry

[Larry Jones 98326]

Just need to tie up a few loose ends. First, the 16 size Muckle described above, #28152, is a smaller case than my 18s #31645.

In addition, #31645 does also have the brass center section.

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Larry,

I found the 1890/91 Rockford Watch Case Co. adv. booklet. Therein they stated that they had repaired 120,000 watch cases. The repair work included changing kw to sw, htg to open face, re-engraving, removing monograms, re-engine turning, gold, silver and nickel plating.

Greg