Does anyone remember............?

[Rick White]

Steve,
Here is the thread you are thinking about
http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000290.html
I have not archived posts in the Pocket watches board because I was advised by Ray Fanchamps not to until he could review the process. I imagine it has to do with the new server we will be using soon. I was also instructed to delete any obvious "dead" posts. As moderator last week I chose to start that process. I told you earlier privately I have not deleted *any* posts that had any replies. To date I have deleted less than 40 something "dead" posts out of over 3000. Every deleted post was over 4 months old. Every deleted post had no replies. There were posts that were posted twice or more( I removed some and left the other).Some were unanswerable questions. Your deleted post requesting info on a Elgin Chronometer wristwatch was over 4 months old, it had not generated any replies in the four months it was posted, there were also no other posts in the board referencing your subject(i.e. no general interest),I recognized your post would not be archived in the pocket watches area. Based on that criteria, I chose to label your post "dead" and as instructed I deleted it. I do not appreciate the public insinuation that I probably deleted the linked post I have provided for you. I told you privately I did not delete ANY posts that had even one reply.Are you publicly calling me a liar??I also told you I thought the archival/deletion subject would be a good topic to post, I still do. I do keep copies of any active posts such as the ones I deleted the other day when you and Jon Hanson got into some personal discussion. I also email the people if possible, informing them of my action. I do not keep posts I think are "dead" or I would just archive them. I do not email regarding "dead" posts. Even the small amount that I have deleted
(less than %.020) generate a large volume of emails to send. I am sorry your computer crashed and you feel put out because you have to repost your question. Should the pocket watches board just be considered a conveniant place to store jpgs instead of your hard drive?I take my position as moderator seriously.I do not just delete anything for the hell of it.I try my best to be fair and consider what is best for the board, rather than just one person. I believe I have demonstrated that since I have started moderating this board.

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Rick White
Pocket Watches Moderator

[This message has been edited by Rick White (edited 03-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rick White (edited 03-01-2001).]

[Rick White]

Steve, I stand by my decision to delete your post based on the criteria I've stated. If you have a problem with that I suggest you take it up with Ray Fanchamps the Board Administrator. Quite frankly my patience is wearing very thin. I do not think I can discuss this subject with you in my usual jovial fashion. I do not know what other moderators were told to do on their boards, I do not know if any of them have deleted any posts.I have had very few complaints from board users,in fact the only complaints I have had have been from you and another user who were crying censorship when they were calling people names and I deleted their posts. Usually I took that action as a result of complaints from other users. If Ray or a majority of the usual pocket watch board members thinks I am doing an inadequate job as moderator I will resign.

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Rick White
Pocket Watches Moderator

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Rick,

I think you're doing a great (and largely thankless) job.

You have my full public support as moderator.

Greg

[Kent]

I agree with what Greg said, Rick is doing a fine job and has my support.

Question for Steve:
Can you ever say (write) anything in only two or three sentences? :wink:

Kent

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 03-01-2001).]

[Ray Fanchamps]

Steve,
Each post generates code that has to be stored on NAWCC based resources. More posts mean more space is used. Doing periodic house cleaning just makes sense.
There are some sharp minds on these boards and "intelectual contributions" very much applies to to some of the posts but as you clearly demonstrate it does not apply to all.
Unlike you I am more than willing to leave the process to Rick White , I am sure he recognizes what is a valuable resource and what is not.

Ray Fanchamps

[Larry Jones 98326]

Rick,

As you know, I fully support your efforts to moderate the sometimes testy comments posted to the board. Early on, I was somewhat put off when Ray deleted a post of mine (my first post! censorship!) that included the word "jerks", but I've since realized that tempers can flare and arguments escalate very quickly. Certain words can come across as very inflammatory in print.

I know your efforts to moderate take a great deal of time, and that you get virtually no reward; nonetheless, please be assured that you have my support and that your efforts are appreciated.

Steve,

I personally see very little reason to delete old threads because, as Wayne notes, text takes up a trivial amount of disk space. On the other hand, I don't know anything about the system setup, and that means that Ray knows a lot better than I what the system requirments are.

Rick's position is purely volunteer, and I know that he is making every effort to be fair, to allow people to express their opinions, and at the same time to maintain some level of dignity for the board itself. I'm sorry to see this disagreement aired semi-publicly, because I fail to see how any good can come from it.

I think a discussion of the archiving issue is needed. I believe that, as initiator of this thread, you have the ability to delete the entire thread. I would like to suggest that you consider the discussion above, and whether or not any good can come from leaving it posted. If not, please consider deleting the thread, and reposting your thoughts on archiving in a new thread. The old thread has been found and can be linked to.........in fact, I think the thread can be reactivated by adding a post to it.......if that serves a useful purpose.


All,


Like many, I am sorry to see this thread. I know that Rick, as volunteer moderator, has made a sincere effort to contribute and to be fair. I also know that Steve has spent countless hours writing lengthy and detailed answers and explanations to questions on a wide variety of topics. I believe that both of you have contributed a great deal to the board and would hope that you both continue to do so.

Larry

[Kent]

Steve & Wayne:

I did not intend my comment about the length of Steve's answers to be anything approaching negative. If it sounds like an attack, I apologize, the winking, smiling face (that I don't often use) was intended to show that my comment was only in jest.

Some of us are long-winded, others aren't. Steve and I tend toward the long-winded side.

Kent

[Rick White]

I trust that Ray as administrator of this board has his reasons for wanting me to delete "dead" posts. I made a mistake in my post earlier the number of "dead" posts was supposed to read under 2 percent. What can I say I am not perfect, but than again I have never responded to slurs, real or imagined very well. From what I understand the UBB software has a real crappy way of indexing posts for searches.I have read that it puts a pretty decent strain on system resources. Every database,even the better ones will operate more effeciently the more streamlined it is.The board has been growing larger and recieving more posts . At some point in time posts will have to be deleted just for the board to operate. Yes UBB's do crash.It makes sense to clean house on a regular basis. We could wait until we have thousands of irrelevant posts or we can get rid of them routinely while the numbers are still managable.If a responsible moderator is entrusted to archiving posts he/she can be deleting the trash at the same time. I would prefer to devote resources 5 years down the road to topics at hand and an archive full of relevant interesting information than many thousands of off topic posts.

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Rick White
Pocket Watches Moderator

[John Cote]

Gosh, I guess I will weigh in here too (briefly).

I also think Rick is doing a great job. Thankless is probably a mild term from Rick's view point, so...Thanks Rick!

One thing I think Larry and Wayne may be forgetting when they talk about the space required for text message storage is the administrative side of an archive. I don't profess to know how our archive works, but as a Technical Sales Rep for database and archiving products, I am willing to bet that the more posts in this simple archive, the more the administrative headache. Remember the old "process control" maxim: "Collecting and archiving tons of data doesn't do you any good if you find it and make sense of it later."

John Cote

[Tom McIntyre]

I would like to make a few quick points.

1. Posts longer than a screenfull are of limited usefulness.

2. The basic cost of storage is unrelated to the cost of on-line storage if you are using a hosted service as this board does. I think that is $1/MB once you are over the basic allotment.

3. The cost of the UBB is processor bandwidth for processing long threads. I think it only shows up with hundreds of simultaneous users.

4. I think Rick is doing a great job moderating this board. People who said they would never again be in the same room together seem comfortable with each other here even though they have permanently left the Chapter 174 Board. I wish I knew how Rick does it. :smile:

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Tom McIntyre
President, NAWCC Chapter 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.mcintyre.com/McIntyre)

[Tom McIntyre]

The NAWCC is looking to get improved bandwidth from Columbia to the net. Until that happens, there is a reasonable concern that a large server in Columbia will not deliver enough bandwidth to make the storage there useful. I think the NAWCC may also be using NT servers, which are a little more expensive at the web hosting sites.

I haven't found anyone at your rates for storage and would like to know more about them. Chapter 174 is paying $165/year for 200 MBytes.

Two variables are unrelated if it is not possible to compute the function that relates them :biggrin: The relationship between disk storage purchase price and on-line disk rental rates is both complex and hidden. It involves a lot more than profit and certainly includes a number of level-of-service functions.

By the way, I suspect that Wayne and I are in nearly complete agreement. :smile: However, the issues involved are very interesting and become even more important as the NAWCC budget gets more stressed.

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Tom McIntyre
President, NAWCC Chapter 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.mcintyre.com/McIntyre)

[Ray Fanchamps]

I would have to admit to struggling a little with this and doing so not based on anything too practical. "Keep everything vs Throwing some away". If we have a big enough box does that mean we should just keep throwing things in there? I think people will be split on what they would do. Some would just throw things in and people like me would throw some in and pull out the ones I no longer need. This is not an issue where "you do the math" , figure out it takes more time to sort out what you will throw out than any time lost to searching through everything. To me it just makes sense that you do housekeeping.
If the box contained one old worn out shoe I would throw it out. What use is a single worn out shoe? I know, its a big box and maybe I need the shoe one day. It can be a circular argument.
I think it boils down to each administration will choose their own style. I do not believe there is any difficulty recognizing a post worth archiving. If there are some questionable ones keep them, this is not a difficult issue.
I appreciate Larry and Wayne's input and think they both "cover the bases" and ultimately I don't think we should operate on a "keep everything basis". This board is a simple tool that very often produces some very interesting material but not everything posted here has value.
We should not put ourselves in a position where we have to spend money to hold, search and administer material of no value.

On the technical side. The wireless access comes with 125 meg of space. The current NAWCC site is 100 megs and growing. Because the wireless host has 24 7 support most of the NAWCC site will be hosted externally. This means Roger does not have to drive the streets of Columbia in is pajamas to push the reset button. Some of the less used site areas will be hosted "in-house" to allow future external expansion while staying within the 125 capacity.
Whilst it is true that expansion "costs" are relatively small that is not an excuse for running inefficiently.

Ray Fanchamps

[Ray Fanchamps]

I will wrap up my participation in this thread with this quick review.
The thread started with an wonderful self contradiction to the validity of the poster's own position.
Had the poster indeed "searched" as he claims he ought to be able to do, he would have found he was speaking in error. No such consensus exists. I have no problem with someone's fallible memory for I too have poor recollection.
I do have a problem with saying one thing and doing another. Someone who takes the position that we should "keep everything" because then we can search for anything does his credibility serious damage when he himself fails with such a search to find the readily available information he sought. A search using the word "archive" punches the "deleted" posts right up.
Even if this individual had succeeded with the search and wanted once again to raise the issue I have no problem with that, credibility aside there can be validity to such a position.
The validity can be determined from factual comparisons. Unfortunately we are not offered such facts. Instead the board is considered a library and housekeeping is considered throwing away books. The analogy sounds great but lets get serious. Deleting a vague one liner with no responses is the same as throwing away a book? What an absurd argument.
Housekeeping was also compared through "logic" as being of the same mentality as throwing out factory notes on watch production. Any factory material produced would have a direct and historical tie to the watches produced, a "connection" adding extra information. The implication being that I would throw out valuable material. What an absurd accusation, what twisted logic. An unanswered one liner such as "what can you tell me about my Jungans clock" is tied to nothing and adds nothing.
I find the lecture on the fundamentals of the association ironic. As a member of the association committed to accessing and sharing our collective knowledge I demonstrate everyday through my efforts an adherence to the goals of the association. How wonderful that my actions are called to question by an individual who is unable to perform a simple search. I work daily on this board and I am called to question by someone who cannot make a simple search especially when the very search function is at the heart of his own proposition, now that is absurd. Failing his own search so piercingly goes to the heart of his credibility and the validity to his own claim.
I am guilty here of getting "off track" from what I had intended this board to be and from my normal modus operandi. I do so as an expression of my deep disappointment that I should find such a poorly presented post that looks to fault my efforts by offering such contradictions and absurd examples, examples of actions I that clearly would not take. These examples are offered by someone clearly demonstrating the failure of his own proposition.
As Wayne notes, nothing is written in stone. We can have a policy of "keeping everything" but argue your case based on the facts.

Ray Fanchamps

[Ray Fanchamps]

Wayne,
Your concerns, or anyone else's about deletions have not been dismissed. In fact I noted at the end of my rebuttal that we could switch to "keeping everything" .
The board has in the past moved its operation toward user "wants" and will continue that practice. The board does not work without the users.
I trust that I will be entitled to presenting rebuttals to contradictory arguments that proffer straw men examples that poorly represent the facts.

Ray Fanchamps



[This message has been edited by Ray Fanchamps (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Tom McIntyre]

To Wayne, the UBB software is pretty good message board commercial software that is relatively inexpensive. It also does not require mySQL or other installed support on the server as its major competitor does. Since the support is not great, one has to live with its warts.

With regard to deleting posts, on the Chapter 174 board, I do not delete any posts, but rather move them into an archive. That avoids the broken links. It is also important to rebuild the UBB from time to time using the functions in the control panel. If you do not do this, stale references in the postings also lead to broken links.

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Tom McIntyre
President, NAWCC Chapter 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.mcintyre.com/McIntyre)