Private Label Research

[John F]

Get out your private label Elgins! Some time back I started tracking, by name and serial number, private label Elgins, and not long ago shared what I had at that point, as discussed in this thread (http://www.mcintyre.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1526&highlight=elgin+private+label).

Tom McIntyre generously offered to host the listing of what I'd pulled togther, in a searchable database format, and after some back and forth to clean up formatting problems, etc. (I think most of them have been caught), it's now available here (http://www.nawcc-info.org/Fogarty/fogarty.htm), as part of the AWCo archives.

What started out to satisfy a bit of curiosity has now blossomed into an ongoing bit of research, so I'd certainly appreciate it if folks could check out what's there for corrections, updates, comments, etc.

Thanks!
John

Edited to update dead links.

[John Cote]

John,

All I can say is WOW. This is a very nice and useful list. I wish I had been following this more closely, because now I will have to spend a little time looking over all your work.

This type project is what the NAWCC is all about. You and all the contributors are to be commended. Great job.

Thanks.

------------------
JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[Jon Hanson]

Here is one-John Mitsch, Allegheny, Pa.

Jon

------------------
Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
President and moderator chapter 149

[John F]

I can account for 9 of these with a heart-shaped cut-out on the balance cock. Most are early to mid-1870s, and all tend to be more highly jeweled for their time (11j or, more typically, higher). The latest model was c. 1882.

I suppose it's possible that later ones of this type (c. 1890s and not yet acounted for) were not as highly jeweled - a number of the "early" private labels seem to be relatively higher quality movements, while later ones (after 1900 or so) seem to run the gamut, but that may just be a function of what's survived. Maybe there's some out there yet waiting to be found...?

John

[jwdavis]

Hello John,

Great post! Thank you! I ran across this one on ebay this morning.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=883734707

M.M. Stevenson, Escanaba. Thanks again!

Jack Davis
Elgin, IL

[John F]

The response to this, in encouragement and new information, has been wonderful - lots more than I anticipated! I now have a fair amount of updating to do (at least it'll keep me off the streets and out of trouble, for a while anyway...)

Mikey - I agree with you about the cut-out balance cocks. They're a pretty and interesting variation. I wish I had one (sigh).

Jack - thanks for spotting that one. While I've spent some time looking on ebay for examples, it's nice to have another set of eyes on the lookout.

Fred - thanks to you, too, for sharing those. The Stief with the "RR Special" dial sounds interesting - are you able to post a picture?

I also need to acknowledge the contributions of several others who have helped me out in this - while a bit of what I've compiled is "raw" research on my own, responsibility and credit for a fair amount (particularly since I made the original posting) is really the work of others who have freely and generously shared what they have. Any of the "nice job" credit I get needs to go to them, as well: Tom McIntyre for helping me with the "dirty work" of getting the database online and hosting it (and sharing his own private label with the cut-out balance cock); Wayne Schlitt (whose ebay logs I trolled for records of past sales); and Les Clark, Jon Hanson, John Cote, Jerry Treiman, Brian C., Kent Singer & Ed Ueberall for the private label information they had in their possession. No one had to do any of that - I'm just glad they did.

John



[This message has been edited by John F (edited 06-12-2002).]

[John Cote]

Wow Fred, I love everything about the Steif RR Special!!! What a great watch. Thanks for sharing. That is a private label collectors dream.

------------------
JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[John F]

Holy shmokes! What an awesome watch - great design on the dial, and a beautiful movement. Thanks for sharing it!

How about a contest - can anybody top this for an Elgin private label?

John

[Kent]

Fred:

Great watch! Thanks for posting it.

Kent

[MikeB]

John F,

Thanks for the great info. Speaking of the heart shape opening in the balance cock, I posted this one elsewhere:
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1042.jpg

Also, on page 84 of Ehrhardts 1978 Price Indicator, there is another with the cut out balance. Serial Number 326,935. Movement marked J.W. Tucker & Co., 134 Kearney St., San Francisco, Cal. Dial marked "THE MINER" with a miner illustration. (I think that Jon had mentioned that this watch had been stolen a while back).

There are a few more Elgin private labels on the bottom of the same page - not sure if these are in your list.

A friend of mine has this one (though not with the cut out balance):

SN# 200353. Elgin J.T Ryerson. Marked "M.M. Fredrick, Virginia, Nev." on movement and "J.T. Ryerson." Marked "M.M. FREDRICK" on dial.

Mike.

[John F]

Thanks for that, Mike. I'd recorded the J. Baur earlier - in fact, I was one of the underbidders for that one, but I'm glad it went to someone who appreciates what an interesting example it is! Thanks for the leads on the others - I'll have to get a copy of Erhardt's.

John

[MikeB]

Hi John,

Yea, the Baur is a neat watch, It was only a movement, really, but I've cased it already and will have it serviced. By the time I get done with it, I'll have more money into it than it can possibly be worth, but at least it should be well preserved for those who should own it long after I have become worm food. http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif

I will check to see if the info in the price indicator book(s) is in yourt list,. If not, I'll email it to you.

Thanks,
Mike.

[donlog]

Another;
J.E.Boucot Bridgeport PA 1766063
18s Gilt 15j micro-adj lever set.
No dial, no balance cock.
Also, the A.R.Brattin, 75620, already on you r list,is gilt, OF pierced cock, plate also has MANFd Elgin Ill, dial is National Watch Co

Don Logan

[This message has been edited by donlog (edited 06-18-2002).]

[Rick White]

Hi John
What a very interesting pursuit, I shall keep you in mind for any PL Elgins I spot. I was wondering about the provenence of one of the watches in your list on Tom's 'The Joat' page. One of the watches listed is
M.W.Co Springfield 11495897 1904 18s, Gr3008, Model 5, 17j "M.W. Co., Springfield " Fancy dial
I saw it was listed in Wayne Schlitt's Ebay log a couple of years back. It has been my experience that these MW.Co watches are swiss fakes, they do have fancy dials often. The watches final bid price was much less than Elgin fancy dial watches go for, especially 18 size. It is possible the watch was really a swiss fake mistakenly put up as an Elgin? I would normally email you privately but perhaps others on the board can prove me wrong as I am only 90 percent sure since I can't view the watch.

------------------
Rick White

[MikeB]

Rick,

I was going to mention the same thing but you beat me to it. I have one of these Swiss fake movements here. The dial is marked "M.W. Co. Springfield" and the movement is marked "Marvin Watch Co." It looks a cross between an Illinois and an Elgin, but it appears to be of a higher quality than most Swiss fakes - until you take the dial off. The dial is a two footed one, and the movement is poorly finished. This one is definately a Swiss fake, but I guess would have to see the one in the database to tell for sure if that one is too.

Mike.

[John F]

Whew! Got a little catching up to do here!

Don - Thanks for the info. That makes 10 with the cut-out balance cock I can account for. As noted above, most of these are early to mid-1870s, but the number was assigned for the Brattin is a little earlier than that. This is becoming an interesting sub-set of the private label Elgins.

Fred - In going back over my corrections/update list, I noticed that there's no serial number for the J.E. Micks you noted above. I would appreciate it if you could let me know what that is (if you'd rather not post the information, please e-mail it to me directly - just click on the "speeding letter" at the top of this post).

Rick & Mike - Yes, there's some question in my mind about the M.W. Co. example. My source for that is Wayne's ebay logs, and like all of the dial-only private labels, there's a risk of dial switching. I'm hoping that the discussion about it will help ferret it out, so that we might be able to confirm whether it's genuine or not. In the meantime I plan to note the question about its authenticity in the "comment" field when I update the database. Or it may drop off entirely.

Thanks all!
John

[Rick White]

Wayne,
I looked up the watch a week or so ago on your Ebay logs, I wouldn't rely on my memory going back two years :wink: I was only trying to help out John, not cast aspersions on your site or watch experience. I still stand by my comment that the watches final bid price was much less than 18 size Elgin fancy dial watches go for.According to your statement it would seem that 75 out of a 100 fancy dial Elgin watches bring in a final price higher than the MW Co watch.Condition is a big factor in fancy dial prices but I didn't see any comments like badly hairlined in the comments section describing the MW Co watch so I didn't use condition as a factor in my observations. I thought the final bid price might be used as a clue if the watch was genuine or maybe a switcheroo with the dial since there aren't any pics available. My comments were based on my experience and observations as a collector, I was hoping maybe others could help out with their experience and observations. Thats why I posted.

------------------
Rick White

[strd34ford]

john,
as requested: the serial number for the j.e. micks is 7456915, its in a philadelphia case # 8315242
regards
fred

[John F]

An update on this little project, and some more statistics on the dates and placement of private label markings. In the earlier discussion I made the observation that earlier (pre-1900 or so) private labels tended to be marked on the movement only, or on the dial and movement, but after that they were marked mostly on the dial only. With the new listings the sample size has gone up by about half (from roughly 200 to over 300), and that observation needs to be modified a little.

The dividing line for movement-marked PLs - with or without PL-marked dials - seems to be about 1895. Before this time (at least in this sample), it's about at likely to find a watch marked on the dial only, movement only, or both the dial and movement. After 1895, the number of dial-only PLs is roughly 3 to 4 times that of movement-only or dial-and-movement-marked PLs, as shown below:

. . . Up to 1895 . 1896 or later
Dial . . . 28 . . . .117
Mvmt . . . 29 . . . . 30
D & M . . .23 . . . . 13

A few words about the post-1895 numbers: 16 of the 30 movement-only PLs are the "Strand" and "Transit" named watches, which as has been previously discussed is not clear whether these are an Elgin name or not. If those are dropped out, the number of post-1895 movement-only PLs in this sample drops pretty significantly. The updated database also now includes 70+ Ball-Elgin listings, courtesy of Kent Singer and Ed Ueberall; I didn't include those in the numbers above because those struck me as being somewhat of a special case for purposes of comparison, since they're not a "typical" PL (putting aside the definitional questions on "what's a PL" and Ball watches). However, if they're included, the proportion of dial-and-movement-marked PLs jumps dramatically.

In any event, does anybody know if this pattern is shared by PLs made by other companies, or is it unique to Elgin?

The earliest Elgin PL I have a listing for is from 1867, a Pennsylvania RR-marked 18s grade 69; the latest dated PL is still holding steady at 1925, with a half-dozen examples. The most common are from C.D. Peacock, with 25 examples covering a 30-year period, and who never had one marked on the movement, not even in 1895. I also can account for 11 movements with the cool cut-out balance cocks, ranging from 1869 to 1882, but most are from the early 1870s (only one after 1875).

Thanks again to everyone who's been generous in helping me pull this together. The revised database won't be up yet for a little bit, but I wanted to share the numbers on the placement of the markings.

Enjoy!
John

[This message has been edited by John F (edited 06-29-2002).]

[Tom McIntyre]

John's latest list is on-line now. Same address.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[John F]

Wayne,

To answer the last question first, my objective in this (which has admittedly changed a little bit since I started tracking) is to get a sense of what the marketing practices were and how they changed over time, so unless I could associate a serial number - or at least enough of one to determine grade and year - with a name, I thought not to include the reference. That was true both with what I found in your ebay logs and in other references. I suppose that the project could expand to try and include a listing of all known private label names for Elgins, but I hadn't thought of doing that. I dunno - that might be an interesting add-on. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

As for the question about Harley logos and all (I've seen dozens with "Ford", "Buick" and lots of other similar names), I didn't track those because I couldn't be sure whether they were original or not. I also don't consider those "private labels" in the sense that they don't appear to have been done for a jeweler, inspector or wholesaler for re-sale, as would typically be the case. The question about whether a dial in which the numbers are replaced with letters should be considered a "private label" watch is a close case, and one that I hadn't considered - tho' I don't know why those would be really any different from one in which the individual's name is in a more central position on the dial. Hmmm.....

John

PS - Thanks Tom - that was fast!

[Tom McIntyre]

I think there are at least two classes of these watches and we have discussed this a bit before.

1. Private Label for a jeweler or wholesaler.
2. Personalized for an individual.

The runic dials clearly fall into the second group. The first group would include both Ball Watch Co. and W.A.G. Smith who sold my Hamilton 960. For Illinois, Burlington and Santa Fe would be private label wholesalers.


------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Kent]

Tom:

I don't think that its correct to refer to Burlington and Santa Fa as "private label wholesalers" for Illinois watches. Both companies only sold directly to the customer, via mail order. By doing so, they were retailers, not wholesalers.

Kent :smile:

[Tom McIntyre]

I think you are technically correct Kent, but they were a little like other high volume outlets that advertized "wholesale to the public." Were there any pure wholesalers who had their own names on the watches? Would Ball be considered a wholesaler by those who do not consider him a maker?

------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Kent]

Tom:

Well ... Ball might be a special case. But, nevertheless, he and other wholesalers may have retailed watches, but they were wholesalers. All the business that Santa Fe and Burlington did was retail. They had no wholesale business whatsoever. If anything, they belong in the same category as Sears, Roebuck or Montgomery Ward - mass market, mail-order retailers.

Kent :smile:

[Jon Hanson]

This one rose to the surface today while hunting for a part for a member:

10s KW #200123, signed "Vitus Martin & Son, Pottsville, Pa." on movement only-it apears to be all original.

Jon, #8801

------------------
Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801
President and moderator chapter 149

[Ball992B]

I hadn't been following this thread.

Fred sure does have some awsome dials in his collection http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/cool.gif

[Tom McIntyre]

I just bought another 194 and as I was looking through my small Elgins, I noticed that the one I already have has a Shreve & Co San-Francisco dial. The movement has standard Elgin marking. The dial is Breguet style and looks original.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Fred Hansen]

A few more Elgin private-labels for John ...

7152565 - Atlas Watch Co. (Signed SS Arabic dial and 7J nickel HC movement)

7155131 - Atlas Watch Co. (Signed SS Arabic dial and 7J nickel OF movement)

7446043 - Acme Watch Co. (Signed SS Roman dial and 7J nickel HC movement w/ uncut brass balance wheel & white hairspring)

7528693 - Solar Watch Co., Chicago (marked on 7J nickel HC movement, SS Roman dial signed "Solar Watch Co.")

12840067 - J.W. Dunlap, Greenville PA (marked on 17J HC 3FB movement, SS Roman dial marked "Dunlap Special.")

Fred

p.s. Do the Acme, Atlas, and Solar count as true private-labels, and are you interested in the data on these names?

[John F]

Thanks very much, Fred!

Yes, I am collecting data on the Acme, Atlas, and Solar names, as well as Sun-Dial and America. Most all of these are super-cheap nickel 7j movements with an uncut balance, made between 1897 and 1899 in 3 grades: 177 (6s hunter), 178 (18s hunter) and 179 (18s open face). The jury's still out on the question of whether any or all of these are true contract watches or not. There's some indication that Atlas, Solar and America are, but it's far from conclusive.

The most common of this group is "Atlas" of which there's an ungodly number out there. I have located an "Atlas Watch and Jewelry Co." operating in Chicago just after the turn of the century, but I still need to confirm that they were in business prior to that when these Elgins were made. There's also a boatload of "Atlas" marked watches made by NYS (also low-end, 7j movements), which to me makes it unlikely that the "Atlas" name is simply a line of low-end Elgin watches that they didn't want to put their own name on.

"Solar" watches are somewhat similar - in addition to those made by Elgin, there's a pile of NYS-made "Solar" watches that carry the same movement marking as the Elgin-made Solar watches ("Chicago 1865"). There doesn't seem to be a connection between these and later swiss-made "Solar" watches for Eaton in Canada. There's also dollar watches made by Ingersoll marked "Solar" - it may just have been a popular name. Next time I'm in Chicago on business, I intend to visit the public library to go through old city directories to see if I can find contemporary listings for either Solar or Atlas.

"America" watches present a different picture, and observed examples vary from the SN records. Instead of nickel, they are typically gilt. "America" Elgins are also not limited to the cheap 177/178/179 grades, but includes at least one 17j model. The dial indicates a Philadelphia location for America. I have seen a handful of Walthams also marked this way. Like Atlas and Solar, since the name appears on other makes (and on higher grade movements), this is probably not an in-house brand of cheap Elgins. A contemporary listing in a Philadelphia city directory would help to confirm this. (There are also "Pan-America" or sometimes "Pan-American" marked watches that were made by NYS for which the lettering style is similar, but that's probably just a coincidence.)

So are these true PLs? I really don't know. My working theory is that these are probably outfits operating in a fashion similar to the Chicago and Non-Magnetic Watch companies, contracting with manufacturers for watches sold under their name.

I have found nothing on either less-frequently seen"Acme" or the more common "Sun-Dial" watches, so for these I can't say one way or the other.

[Jerry Treiman]

John,
Kurtis Meyer's book on Horological Trademarks credits Atlas to Louis Manheimer & Bros. in Chicago, claiming use since 1896. Solar was claimed by Benjamin Allen & Co. in Chicago, in use since 1897.

[John F]

Great info Jerry - thanks so much! That really helps.

Does anyone know if the 1865 date on Solar watches coincides with the founding of Benj. Allen?

[Fred Hansen]

Another here ...

18531438 - Transit (17J 4 Pos. 2-tone movement, SS "Elgin" dial)

Fred

[uhries]

Hello John,
Recently I bought an Elgin with SN 304129. Movement is marked " W.H. Thorp Beaver Dam Wis., Manfd. Elgin Ills" Balance cock is cut out. Dial is signed Elgin Nat'l Watch Co.
I'll trie to send a pic of the movement during the next days.

Leo

[Fred Hansen]

8465384 - America, Philadelphia U.S.A. (7J gilt HC movement, same markings on SS Roman dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

806435 - Webb C. Ball, Cleveland O (Dial markings only, movement was a typical factory marked conv. model)

Fred

[IMHO]

5,248,097 18 15 O F N 5 Adj 124 Phil Herbert Murphysboro IL
8,540,806 12 21 O 3 N 3 Adj 237 MAIER & BERKELE ATLANTA GA (dial only)
9,090,027 12 19 H 3 N 2 A5P Pat 189 D C Jaccard St Louis
13,491,011 12 15 H 3 N 2 U Pat 314 Constant St Louis USA

[John F]

Thanks for the help, boiz! This is a nice present to get, after being away for the holidays.

[Fred Hansen]

http://images.snapfish.com/3427697923232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3E WSNRCG%3D32328264%3C6653nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/3427697923232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3%3B %3DXROQDF%3E23237355%3B9535ot1lsi

12016091 - The Veribest, N. Gamse, New York

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

326617 - J.W. Tucker & Co., San Francisco Cal (cut-out balance cock, SS Roman dial marked "Tucker's Granger Watch" and with image of, I think, a bale of hay)

20018127 - E.H. Williams, Barrie (Markings on 24 hour Arabic dial only, movement is a factory marked 17J 18 size)

Fred

[Kent]

Fred, et.al.:

The name N. Gamse, NY also appears on a couple of 21-jewel model `92s, with the marking "The American Leader":
12,028,526
16,057,339

And also on the following Illinois watches:

1,504,804 - 18S - 24J - HC - Mvt "Montgomery Ward & Co. - Special" Dial "The Queen, N. Gamse New York, U.S.A."
1,534,952 - 18S - 24J - OF - Mvt - "Planet - N. Gamse, New York"
1,913,072 - 18S - 17J - OF - Mvt "The Queen Extra, N. Gamse, N.Y. U.S.A."
2,112,909 - 16S - 21J - 0F - Mvt: "The Manhatten-N.Gamse, New York"
3,381,916 - 16S - 21J - 0F - Mvt: "The Manhatten-N.Gamse, New York"
3,680,709 - 16S - 21J - HC - Mvt: "The Manhatten-N.Gamse, New York"
3,743,155 - 16S - 21J - 0F - Mvt & Dial " The Union Pacific, N. Gamse, N.Y."

Kent

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Kent -

Thanks for the info., and I would be very interested in any further information (either here or by email) you may have on the 24J Illinois "Planet" you have listed above.

Thanks,
Fred

[John F]

Thanks for that. The Gamse is a nice one. I saw one just like it a little while back, but with a damaged dial. It resold a few months later with a generic "Elgin" dial and stripped of its fancy gold hands. A real tragedy, in my opinion.

The Tucker watches had some fabulous designs, and the Granger is among my very favorities. Others I have seen had "J.W. Tucker & Co. San Francisco Cal." on the movement, and at least one was more highly jeweled than the SN records would indicate (15 jewels on the grade 12, instead of the usual 7 to 11). All told, a very desireable PL.

[Fred Hansen]

5914901 - L.L. Mason, Jamestown NY (marked on 11J HC movement and SS Roman dial)

7498702 - Cady & Olmstead, Kansas City MO (marked on 12 size 19J movement, DS Arabic "Elgin" dial with slanted numerals)

8465384 - America, Philadelphia USA (marked 7J HC movement and SS Roman dial)

11584837 - Elgin Special (marked on DS Arabic dial only, movement was a factory marked 17J OF)

17328336 - Klein & Fink, Ft. Smith Ark. (marking on SS Arabic dial only, movement a factory-marked 15J HC)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

14282286 - Bichsel Bros., Sedalia MO (marked on SS Arabic dial only, movement a factory marked 7J gilt HC)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Doing what I can to keep you busy John! :wink:

200042 - California Lady (marked on movement and SS Roman dial)

725116 - Advance (marked on barrel bridge of movement, are these private-labels?)

10940038 - L.T. Chapman, Franklin PA (marked on SS Roman dial only, movement is factory-marked)

Fred

[John F]

Thanks for these - you're a one-man gang, Fred!

I have not considered "Advance" to be a PL, chiefly on the basis that it is listed in the Elgin material catalogs as a named grade (along with a few other PL-like names, such as "The Age" and "Chief"). However, I have not seen any advertising or other material either way.

[Fred Hansen]

115960 - F.R. Polack, York PA (marked on movement w/ cutout balance cock)

129792 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked on SS Roman dial only, typical BW Raymond movement)

2699182 - Chas. J. Noach, Sacramento Cal. (marked on SS Roman dial and movement)

3667918 - Webb C. Ball, Cleveland O. (marked on SS Arabic dial only, 14K Webb C. Ball marked
case)

5248195 - Henry W. Spellman, Nashua NH (marked movement, SS Roman dial marked "Henry W. Spellman")

6594151 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal (marked on Arabic dial and 7J gilt HC movement)

7287131 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked on movement, SS Roman dial marked "Atlas Watch Co.")

7419101 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked on movement, SS Roman dial marked "Atlas Watch Co.")

7537563 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked on movement, SS Roman dial marked "Atlas Watch Co.")

10070587 - Beyerle, Reading PA (marked on SS Roman dial only, factory marked movement)

10737050 - Harwood's Special (marked movement, SS Arabic dial marked "P.J. Harwood, Jeweler, Portage La Prarie, Man")

12166493 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only, factory marked movement)

14487656 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only, factory marked movement)

15486464 - F.G. Wehrle, Belleville Ill (marked on SS Arabic dial only)

21052208 - Guy C. Fitz, Zainesville O (marked on SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Tom Huber]

I have a dial only marked "H. B. Potthoff, Latrobe, PA". Latrobe is the home of golfer Arnold Palmer and Rolling Rock Beer. This fits a 16S Elgin.

I also have an 18S dial marked "Rothsteins". I know there was a Rothsteins jewelry store in Johnstown, PA up through the mid 1930's. It went by the boards in the 36 flood. What I don't know is if Rothsteins was a chain and if there were other stores in other towns.

Tom

[John F]

...and not only is Latrobe the home of Arnie and good old No. "33" in the green bottles, but Latrobe's also home of the first professional football game in the US, in 1895 when the Latrobe YMCA bested the Jeannette, Pa. Athletic Club 12-0. I have a single record of a Potthoff of Latrobe private label, from 1888 - what a hoot if it was at the first game! A painting of the Potthoff store is attached.

I have to agree with you, Tom - the only reference I can find to Rothenstein's (and there are many) has it located in Johnstown, so I don't think it's a chain.

Fred, the Penna. RR watch is a great new find - hope it's yours!

John

[Barrymac]

I have a John Mitsch Jr. Allegheny, Pa. Serial 75551 National dial 15 j adjusted RRG. This is in a 4 oz coin case and mitsch.jpg ( http://images.andale.com/f2/117/110/12846500/1108196017358_mitsch.jpg) is my 'carry watch'.

[Barrymac]

I'll try again on the picture. If not, could someone in charge fix it? PC drives me crazy sometimes.

[Tom Huber]

John, thanks for the pic of the Potthoff store. I believe that building is on Jefferson St in Latrobe and is still standing. You are correct about the forst pro football game. That is still a bone of contention for the locals that the pro hall of fame ended up in Canton, OH. Next time I'm in Latrobe, I'll look for the building.

Barry, FYI. Allegheny, PA is what is now the northside of Pittsburgh. It was annexed by the city of Pgh at the turn of the century.

Tom

[Fred Hansen]

325220 - J.H. Barker, Winterset Iowa (marked movement only, cutout balance cock)

375335 - D.L. Jaccard, St. Louis MO (marked 18 size nickel movement, SS Roman "Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis MO" dial, in 18K Jaccard marked case)

375389 - D.L. Jaccard (marked on partial 18 size nickel movement ... missing barrel bridge)

1773572 - W.G. Beasley, Rich Hill MO (marked movment only)

4454543 - A.K. Jobe, Jackson Tenn (marked DS Roman dial only, factory marked movement)

7100518 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

7143860 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

7419101 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

7855665 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

8236108 - Duchess (marked movement)

9673039 - For Jaccard Jewelry Co. Kansas City by Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. (marked movement, SS Arabic fancy dial marked "Jaccard")

10520771 - A. Stowell & Co. (marked on SS Arabic fancy dial only)

10567450 - Bostonian, Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. (marked on SS Arabic dial only)

11788453 - Kumm & Son, Pittsburg Kans (marked on SS Roman dial only)

12201058 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

13439430 - Wm. J. Burkhardt, Dayton Ohio (marked on SS Roman dial only)

15268009 - Lippman's, Altoona PA (marked on SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[M. Cross]

Just to be curious, would Atlas watches be considered a true 'private label'? From what I've read, they were like the Burlington Watch co, and contracted with Elgin to produce these low end movements to sell under their name. I usually think of a 'private label' to be one contracted for by a local jeweler.
Like I said, just curious how it is defined.
Regards. Mark

[Jos]

Wuesteman

Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
11204731 11204001 1000 349 1904 349* 18s ofn7l 21j A-A5P
# listed as 252 in the 1950 MC but said to be 349 in the Master Records



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/jacamo/ae1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/jacamo/ae.jpg

[John F]

Fred - I humbly bow down to your prowess in sniffing out PLs (of all makes and models)!

Mark - For what it's worth, I have been treating the Atlas-marked Elgins as PLs or "specially ordered" watches, although in the absence of a hard definition of a "private label," I suppose one could debate it. As reported earlier in this thread by Jerry Treiman, Kurtis Meyer's book on Horological Trademarks credits Atlas to Louis Manheimer & Bros. in Chicago, claiming use since 1896. Much like any regular jeweler, they would have contracted with Elgin to have their name (or just about anything) put on watches they sold. Manheimer just did so on an ungodly number of low-end movements in just a few years. C.D. Peacock did pretty much the same thing, only in smaller orders over a 30+ year period, and ranging from cheap 7 jewel movements to better quality grades. Close enough for me.

Jos - the Weusetman sure is an attractive one. I have seen this one before (it may have been discussed on this or another board). I especially like the Illinois Central inspired design on the movement.

Thanks - I appreciate all the help.

[M. Cross]

Understood, John. Works for me. Regards. Mark

[Fred Hansen]

246201 - T.K. Brunner, Circleville OH (marked movement)

2346002 - Schmedtie Bros., Washington D.C. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

2874547 - Mermod, Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Roman dial only)

5861604 - C.A. Olmstead, Ottawa Ont. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

7103921 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

7395935 - Solar Watch Co., 1865, Chicago (marked movement, SS Roman "Solar Watch Co." dial)

11144917 - Mermod, Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Roman dial only)

12932282 - Diamond Special (marked on SS Arabic dial only)

14136150 - I. Levin (marked SS Arabic fancy dial only)

15071088 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

15349253 - Ox Fibre (marked SS Runic dial only, Runic lettered "Our Trademark.")

38275176 - Chronometre, Elgin, Saihou Cairo (marked SS Arabic dial only)

C.P. Kimball & Co., Chicago (marked SS Arabic 18 size dial)

J.T. Duckett, Greenwood S.C. (marked SS Roman 18 size dial)

Fred

EDIT to correct misspelling on 2nd entry

[John F]

Tom M. outsniped me for the Shmedtie Bros. convertible with the cool checkerboard damaskeening. :frown: At least it's going to a good home.

Fred, can you describe the "Ox Fibre" runic dial a little more? Sounds interesting but I'm having trouble picturing it.

[Fred Hansen]

Hi John -

Tom beat me on that one too!

Here is a link to the completed eBay listing for the Ox Fibre, which went unsold ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14325&item=4971726799

Fred

[4thdimension]

Fred, Where DO you find all these? I though Elgin PLs were somewhat scarce. What a list!

I noticed one that was listed Jan. 29 (2699182)
which may have a typo ( or I might not be remembering correctly). I remember Chas Noack and you have "Noach". I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time)but it might be worth a double check.
-Cort

[John F]

I double-checked using the 1880 census records - C.J. Noach born Wisc. 1854, occupation watchmaker-jeweler.

I originally had another of this jeweler's PLs listed as Noack, as well.

[4thdimension]

John, Good work! At least Mr. Noach's name is
recorded correctly here. Do you have a source
for the other "Noack" report? If it was me then the case is closed, I made a mistake. If not from me then there may be more at play here. I'm looking forward to new sightings of this name to see if any "Noack" sightings can be confirmed.

Thank you for looking this up.
-Cort

[John F]

Cort, if it was you then both of us goofed. The fancy "h" looked enough like a "k" to fool me/us - at least, that's the way I had recorded the first one of these I had seen. After the sighting of the second Noach/Noack in Jan., I went to census records to see which it was.

No harm, no foul!

[Fred Hansen]

http://images.snapfish.com/3434256%3B23232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3% 3B%3DXROQDF%3E23237%3A2%3C474%3C6ot1lsi

303784 - Wait. Dewey. & Co., Ravenna O

Fred

[John F]

Some quick sluething turned up this, from the "History of Portage County, Ohio" (Warner, Beers & Co. Chicago, 1885):

"EDWIN R. WAIT, jeweler and watch-maker, Ravenna, was born in Aurora, this county, July 4, 1830. His parents, Jonathan and Abigail Wait, of Chester, Mass., settled in this county about 1825. They lived the lives of useful pioneers, and raised a family of ten children, of whom but three are now living in this county. The mother died February 23, 1877; the father January 17, 1881, at the age of eighty-four. Our subject at the age of twenty-one began learning the trade of jeweler and watch-marker, with R.A. Baird, of Ravenna, and was for many years engaged with him, finally purchasing the entire business. He carried on the enterprise alone for many years, taking in as a partner his brother, Alva F., in 1871. The firm is now known as Wait Bros. They enjoy an extensive custom as manufacturing jewelers, watch-makers and dealers in a complete line of jewelers' goods. Theirs is the oldest business house (with one exception) in Ravenna. Mr. Wait married Miss Mary E. Swift, November 18, 1858. She is a daughter of Dr. Isaac Swift, one of the early settlers of this city, and for many years prominently identified with the medical profession. To Mr. and Mrs. Wait have been born one son - Henry M. and one daughter - Emily M. Our subject and wife are members of the Congregational Church. Mr. Wait is a life-long Republican, casting his first vote for Fremont. He takes a deep interest in public affairs. Has been a member of the Board of Education for fifteen years."

Curiously, no mention of Mr. Dewey, his apparent partner, in this bio. The 1880 census lists a "Dwight Dewy" of Ravenna whose occupation is given as "Sells Jewelry."

[Fred Hansen]

Nice sleuth work John! :wink:

I also saw an early Rockford yesterday that was marked for this same firm ... wonder if there are any others?

Fred

[Tom Huber]

Is this Mr Dewey any relation to the one in the corporate accounting firm of Dewey, cheatum and Howe?

Tom

[Fred Hansen]

304163 – Langdon Simons, Manchester N.H. (marked movement w/ cutout balance cock, SS Roman “Langdon Simons” dial)

3012345 – H.P. Richardson, Havenhill Mass (marked movement only)

7156502 – Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Arabic “Atlas Watch Co.” dial)

7345375 – Sun-Dial USA (marked movement, SS Roman “Sun-Dial” dial)

9607515 – Patenaude Bros., Nelson B.C. (marked movement and DS Roman 24 hour dial)

9798068 – D. Buchanan & Son, Richmond VA (marked movement and DS Arabic dial)

13185809 – A. Krautheim (marked SS Arabic dial only w/ blue numerals and signature)

22596218 – Angus & Coote Ltd., Sydney (marked SS Arabic dial only)

25946677 – Elgin Paramount (marked metal Arabic dial only)

27607615 – Elgin, B.C. Clark (marked SS Arabic Montgomery dial only w/ “B.C. Clark” in arch over seconds-bit)

E. Lines & Co., Mt. Pleasant Iowa (marked SS Arabic 12 size dial)

Fred

[Jon Hanson]

Young Fred,

IN YOUR OPINION WHICH "HOLE IN THE COCK" CAME FIRST? Elgin or Hampden?

A question arose on Web Horology and I believe that Elgins were first to do this???

Thanks.

Jon

[John F]

It's interesting how many of these firms are still in business today. In Fred's most recent list above, both Angus & Coote of Sydney (www.anguscoote.com.au/about_us/003.cfm (http://www.anguscoote.com.au/about_us/003.cfm)) and BC Clark of Okla City (www.bcclark.com/about.html (http://www.bcclark.com/about.html)) are still in operation.

Jon, I missed the posting on this in Web Horology, but the earliest Elgin I have recorded with a pierced balance cock is 1869.

[Tom Huber]

I dug out a dial today that I remembered. It's an 18S, RN, single sunk dial marked "A. Eichler, New York". This dial fits an 18S New York Standard.

Tom

[Fred Hansen]

Good question Jon ... would be an interesting feature to try to pinpoint on these and I would guess Elgins to be earlier.

Also could include hole in the cock Illinois private-labels in the search ...

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

200787 - W.C. Byrd, Memphis (marked movement, SS Roman "National Watch Co. for W.C. Byrd, Memphis" dial)

4104153 - Wm. Pott, Woodstock (marked SS Roman dial only)

9192914 - H. Muhr's Sons Inc., Philadelphia (marked SS Arabic dial only)

10672685 - Frank Tarrant, Rochester NY (marked SS Roman dial only)

13484239 - Duhme Bros., Covington KY (marked SS Arabic dial only)

14825211 - Specially Examined by R.G. Wehrley, Johannesburg (marked on SS Roman dial only)

20063335 - S. Kind & Sons, Philadelphia (marked SS Arabic dial only)

20370799 - Robt. McDonald, Elgin, Vancouver B.C. (marked on SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

A few more ...

329190 - J.W. Tucker & Co., San Francisco Cal (cut-out balance cock, SS Roman dial marked "Tucker's Granger Watch" and with image of bundled grain)

2851633 - Jno. F. Beyerle, Reading (marked SS Roman dial only)

3462993 - Chas. J. Noach, Sacramento Cal. (marked on SS Roman dial and movement)

7419906 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

9596470 - W.B. Webb, Allandale Ont. (marked DS Arabic Montgomery 24 hour dial only)

10716873 - Lungreen & Wilson, St. Charles Ills (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

11218033 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

11697089 - John Brenner & Co., Youngstown O (marked SS Roman dial only)

11805877 - J.R. White & Co. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12204079 - W.H. Hellyar, Clinton Ont. (marked movement, SS Arabic "Hellyar" dial)

12784085 - Elgin, H.O. Bonine, Fresno Cal (marked DS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Sheila Gilbert]

I don't know if this was answered, but I'm going to post it anyway just in case.

Benjamin Allen & Co. Chicago Ill. does indeed hold the registered trademarks on the SOLAR name. (OR SOME OF THEM)
It is listed in 3 ways, mostly in design.

1) Solar in block form Filed Sept. 15, 1897 used since Sept. 1, 1897

2) Solar more cursive shape, Issued Feb. 19, 1907.

3) Solar Watch Co. 1865 Chicago Ill. Filed: Sept. 15, 1897, Used Since Sept. 1, 1897.

That sure solves the # 3- 1865 question about where they came from.

[Sheila Gilbert]

Harry Belenky NYC also held the trademark for Solar, however it's listed as Filed: Aug. 3, 1935, Used Since July 30, 1935 so he may have picked it up after it expired. (maybe) ?

[Fred Hansen]

380301 - J.W. Tucker, San Francisco Cal (marked movement, SS Roman dial marked "Tucker's Granger Watch" and with bundle of wheat)

5696667 - Silbert Bros., Raritan New Jersey (marked SS Roman dial only)

6797343 - Shreve & Co., San Francisco (marked movement only, SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

7730432 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

8496004 - Shreve & Co., San Francisco (marked movement and DS Arabic dial)

11181580 - Perry Bros., Special (marked movement, modern metal dial)

12852077 - A.G. Gaul's Special (marked movement, SS Arabic "A.G. Gaul, Beeton Ont" dial)

15696034 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

37327395 - Elgin, Paramount (marked SS Arabic dial only)

A.N. Anderson, Standard Time (marked 16 size DS Arabic 24 hour dial)

J.T. Skales & Co., Mt. Forest (marked SS Roman 18 size dial)

Syman Bros., Denver Colo (marked SS Roman 16 size dial, on factory marked grade 280 movement)

Fred

[John F]

Thanks Fred - are the last 3 loose dials only?

By the way, I've spent some time digging through the trademark listings, and have determined that both "Strand" and "State Street" are not private label names, but in fact are Elgin trademarks. So is "Avion" (seen on late 20s/early 30s wind indicators).

The trademark records also associate some of the other names with particular jewelers or wholesalers:

"Acme Watch Co." - Otto Young & Co., Chicago (trademarked 1897)
"Artistic," "Diplomat" and "IOCO" - Isodor Ollendorf Co., New York (trademarked 1922, 1917 and 1919, respectively)
"Dictator" - S & N Katz, Baltimore (1922)
"Atlas Watch Co." and "Federal" - Manheimer & Bros., Chicago (1896 and 1903, respectively)
"Sun-Dial" - Jason R. Hopkins (1897)

The last one was a bit of a surprise. This is apparently the same Jason Hopkins of Auburdale Watch Co./Rotary watch fame. The "Sun Dial" grades are the cheap 7 jewel movements with the fake compensation balance. Up to now I had assumed that this was a name Elgin used to disguise some of its low quality movements. Go figure.

[Fred Hansen]

Hi John -

The A.N. Anderson and J.T. Skales were loose dials only.

The Syman Bros. was on a grade 280 Elgin listed to a dealer's website but there looks to be some confusion with the serial number (missing a digit?), so I'll send you an email with a direct link for this one.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

150855 – R.A. Hubbard, Brookville PA (marked gilt KW movement only w/out balance cock cutout, SS Roman “National Watch Co.” dial)

303550 – F.A. Fuller, Jamestown NY (marked gilt KW movement w/ cutout balance cock, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

304036 – W. Warren Wattles, Pittsburgh PA (marked gilt KW movement w/ cutout balance cock, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

4170602 - F.W. Smith & Bro., Napanee (marked SS Roman 24 hour dial only)

4839956 - John S. Barnard, Whitby Ont. (marked SS Roman 24 hour dial only)

7151043 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement)

7200327 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, Roman "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

7499589 – C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

7966189 – C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

8091038 – Maier & Berkele, Atlanta GA (marked movement only)

8197395 - Marks Lewy, 70 East Van Buren St., Chicago (marked SS Arabic multicolor fancy dial only)

10856021 – John J. Kingsley, Boston (marked movement only)

11737245 – Queen, Elgin Nat’l Watch Co. (marked SS Arabic dial only … no seconds-bit on dial)

12252852 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

12947621 - J. Warren, Portland (English, UK ... not Portland Oregon ... private-label marked SS Roman dial only)

14341690 – C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

15797949 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only, 3-finger bridge "G.M. Wheeler" movement)

16048171 – Canadian Elgin (marked SS Roman dial only)

17479228 – E. Slutzker, Johnstown PA (marked SS Roman dial only)

19779118 - Strand (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

26535267 – N. Rasch, Warwick, Q’ld., Made In U.S.A. (Australian private-label marked SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Australian private-label at the end of the list above ...

http://images.snapfish.com/343%3C292323232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3% 3B%3DXROQDF%3E23238%3B7%3C784%3C%3Bot1lsi

http://images.snapfish.com/343%3C292323232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3% 3B%3DXROQDF%3E23238%3B7%3C7853%3Bot1lsi

Fred

[John F]

Cool find, Fred. You don't see many from Oz.

Incidentally, the "Queen" name in the list above appears to have been a Ball trademark.

By the way, Tom has recently updated the on-line searchable database. Lots of new listings and updated information is there.

[Jon Hanson]

It is Queensland, a well known place in A.

[Kent]

Fred Hansen:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">11737245 – Queen, Elgin Nat’l Watch Co. (marked SS Arabic dial only … no seconds-bit on dial) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

John F:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Incidentally, the "Queen" name in the list above appears to have been a Ball trademark. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon Hanson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is Queensland, a well known place in A. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_Blue">??????????????????????????????????? Somebody seems to be confused!</span>

[John F]

This is probably of interest only to me, but I thought I'd share it here just in case. Here's some data and trends based on the observations in the just-updated Elgin PL database:

Earliest PL: SN 157, c.1867 - "Julis Hayden" (a Penna. RR conductor)

Latest PL: SN 3,527,176, c.1939 - "Saihu, Cairo Egypt"

Most common names:
Atlas Watch Co. - 175 (lots of cheap stuff)
Ball Watch Co. - 174 (lots of 333's)
Peacock Jewelry - 103 (a little of everything)

Sorted by jewel count:
7j - 426
11j-13j - 90
15j-17j - 575
&gt;17j - 124

Largest production years:
1897 - 240
1904 - 124

Peak years (5 yr period):
1895-1899 - 389
1903-1907 - 302

Some other observations include that movement-only labeling (or both dial and movement) are much more common pre-1900, and dial-only is the most common post-1900. In addition, shortly after the peak period ending just prior to 1910, the frequency drops off considerably to almost nothing by WW1. The 1920s saw a brief resurgence (120 between 1921 and 1926), before petering out in the late 1920s.

John

[Fred Hansen]

Very interesting statistics there John and thanks for posting!

I once ran a similar search through my Illinois Watch Co. private-label notes and found the peak years (especially for what you might call "jeweler contract's") seemed to be right at the mid-1890's.

And just to keep you busy here are a few more data points ...

2770003 – W.R. Jackson, St. Thomas Ont. (marked movement, SS Roman 24 hour “Elgin Natl Watch Co.� dial)

3593593 – O. Pearson, Tullahoma Tenn. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

10707450 – C.A. Fox, Walkerton Ont. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12387674 – S. Mussina & Son (marked SS Arabic dial only)

15124582 – John Wanamaker, Phila – New York
(marked movement, SS Arabic “Elgin� dial)

:wink:

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

19877106 - Strand (marked movement, fancy SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

Fred

[Beetlebug]

I just got the 12s Elgin marked John Wanamaker and was going to put the serial up when I noticed two posts above someone had already done it! Fast work.

[Fred Hansen]

3861213 – Von Gunten Bros, Chatham Ont. (marked SS Roman dial only)

11616060 – Standard, St. Louis – New York (marked movement, SS Arabic “Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis – New York” dial)

12726057 – Made by Elgin Nat’l Watch Co. for Hess & Culbertson, St. Louis (SS Roman “Hess & Culbertson” dial)

Fred

[Beetlebug]

7499589 – C.D. Peacock. Arabic marked dial. Movement marked "Elgin Natl. Watch Co." 23j 12s.

[Jon Hanson]

Peacock Os 17J OF N 14867106

[Fred Hansen]

7424749 – A. Stowell & Co. (marked SS Arabic fancy dial, factory marked movement)

12817638 – Chas R. Hoffmann, Est. 1882, Waupaca Wis. (marked dial, all dial markings in blue and slanted Arabic numerals, factory marked movement)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Haven't forgotten about you John, here is more Elgin PL info ...

115874 - George M. Reed, Pittsburgh PA (Marked gilt KW movement w/out balance cock piercing, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial, “J.R. Reed Pitts” coin case missing front lid, resold later on eBay w/out case)

245084 - Chas. H. Frame, Franklin Ind. (Marked gilt KW movement w/out balance cock piercing, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

304968 - C.F. Rudolph, 231 Market St., Wilmington Del. (Marked gilt KW movement w/ cutout balance cock, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

2231018 - The R.W. Sears (marked movement, SS Roman “R.W. Sears” dial)

3909670 - Sam. F. Sipe, Pittsburgh PA (marked SS Roman dial only)

4692093 - J.W. Talbot (marked 18 size gilt movement, SS Arabic "J.W. Talbot, Nevada MO" dial)

5602893 - Ketchum & Reeves, Atlanta GA (marked movement only)

6468943 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

9035495 - O.M. Howard, San Francisco (marked DS Arabic dial only)

10308145 - Emil Grist, St. Paul Minn (marked SS Arabic fancy dial only)

12495992 - Watson & Davis, Bronson Mich (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12852077 - A.G. Gaul’s Special (marked movement, SS Arabic “A.G. Gaul, Beeton Ont.” dial)

12855109 - Made Exclusively for Arnold & Co., Columbus IN (marked movement, dial marked “Arnold & Co.”)

13112868 - C.B. Wark, Prince Rupert B.C. (Marked DS Arabic 24 hour dial only)

13299195 - Made in America for J. Wishart, Rainbow (marked on SS Roman dial only, from Australian eBay listing)

13429513 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

14028504 - F.E. Reynolds, Plainville Kans. (Marked SS Roman dial only)

14136150 - I. Leven (marked fancy Arabic dial only)

16656144 - A. Newsalt, Dayton O. (Marked SS Arabic dial only)

17701984 - C.D. Peacock (marked dial only)

19643541 - Strand (marked movement, SS Arabic “Elgin” dial)

19711881 - Strand (marked movement, SS Arabic “Elgin” dial)

20370799 - Robt. McDonald, Elgin, Vancouver B.C. (Marked SS Arabic dial only)

22727936 - A. Yewdall, Leeds, Elgin (marked SS large Roman numeral dial only, UK private-label)

22742364 - W.G. Nicol, Watchmaker & Jeweler, Bowral (marked SS Arabic dial, Australian private-label to Bowral Australia)

30863805 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

Elgin, Specially Manufactured for Kenochsberg Son Co. Ltd. (Marked SS roman dial only, on factory marked 7J gilt 16 size movement, listed by UK seller)

Ross Larrabee, Macon MO (marked 18 size SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

18 size Elgin dial ...

http://images.snapfish.com/34566%3C8323232%7Ffp335%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3 A%3EWSNRCG%3D3233366558396nu0mrj

Fred

[John F]

Thanks, Fred. Love the dial!

[Wes]

Mov't marked "J. H. Verkins, Mantorville, Minn"
Serial 30,132
18s
KW
11-15J

[Jon Hanson]

AN ELGIN, WES?

[Wes]

well....
It's early (for Elgin) and PL, and a Kewind, so it fits in the collection nicely... :biggrin:

[mch]

Regarding Fred's beautiful Mexican dial. I am pretty sure that A. C. Smith was the fellow in Chicago, formerly a watch company agent in New York, who tried to make a go of Non-Magnetic Watch Co. of America during the 1890's, selling the Swiss movements. That flopped (the 1890's were an economic disaster) and the material was sold out by A. C. Becken. A. C. Smith then moved on to other ventures. There is no faulting his aesthetic sense.

[Jon Hanson]

Like Mexican dials?

http://www.pocketwatchclub.org/ch149mb/files/watches0004_106.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

Elgin's Northernmost private-label?

http://images.snapfish.com/34572%3A7923232%7Ffp336%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3 A%3EWSNRCG%3D323336653%3B387nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/34572%3A7923232%7Ffp336%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3 A%3EWSNRCG%3D3233366552%3C46nu0mrj

9305293 - L.W. Suter, Nome Alaska (marked DS Arabic dial, factory marked grade 270 movement)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

2360644 - Geo. P. Kirtland, Nashville Tenn (marked SS Roman dial only, movement missing barrel and barrel bridge)

3277283 - Chas W. Brown, Charleston W. Va. (marked SS Roman dial only)

3593723 - Irion & Girardet, Louisville KY (marked SS Roman dial only)

5771746 - Johan Sverdrup, Elgin Ill (marked movement)

9341482 - Charles H. Hambly, Philadelphia (marked SS Arabic dial only)

11066598 - Vanderbilt Jewelry Co. (marked SS Roman dial)

11080989 - C.P. Kryhl, Santa Ana Cal. (marked DS Arabic dial only)

11236401 - Mermod, Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Arabic dial only)

11673418 - M. Bilsky & Son, Ottawa Ont. (marked DS Arabic 24 hour dial only)

11797043 - A.J. Stoessel, Milwaukee Wis. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

12910563 - A.N. Anderson, Standard Time (marked DS Arabic 24 hour dial only)

14168608 - Geo. H. Cook & Co., Arizona (marked SS Roman dial only)

Edward J. Jensen, Milwaukee (marked SS Arabic blue and gold fancy 12 size dial)

Fairfax & Roberts, Sydney (Australian PL marked SS Roman 6 size dial only, high grade 16J? factory marked movement seller would not disclose serial number)

Paull & McDonald, Elgin, Vancouver B.C. (marked SS Arabic 16 size dial only, factory marked 7J movement)

Shreve & Co. (marked 16 size DS Arabic dial, eBay dealer states "<span class="ev_code_RED">I took this dial off a grade 156 Hunter</span>" and also has simultaneously listed a bare grade 156 movement serial #6995367 for sale with no dial or case, WHY???)

Fred

[John F]

Thanks, Fred!

And, as to the last one, why indeed? *Sigh*

[John F]

Interesting connection! Here's a painting of the Potthoff store, which I understand is still standing.

http://www.wmhoffmanjr.com/images/potthoff-e.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

4650400 - C.S. Raymond, Omaha Neb. (marked movement, DS Roman "Elgin" dial)

7435892 - Jones The Jeweler (marked SS Arabic dial only, blue lettering on cream color background)

11586222 - M. Couture, Lake Megantic Que (marked DS Arabic 24 hour dial only)

13006640 - Klein's (marked SS Roman dial only)

13500033 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and DS Arabic dial)

15555435 - A. Yewdall, Leeds, Lever (marked SS Roman dial only)

20005590 - S. Kind & Sons., Philadelphia (marked SS Arabic dial only)

The League Jewelry Co., Gassaway W. Va. (marked 18 size SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[bernie levine]

Thanks Fred,
For all the Pl movements.many new to me...I guess the private label story continues on and on.
Here is another;
Ill. #1241210 17j 18 size model 6 grade 65-S Dial and
movement marked Ross & Haseltine co.,
Kokomo, Indiana.

bernie

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks again for more Illinois info Bernie!

The Illinois Watch Co. number you just listed fits into my Illinois private-label notes between these two movements a bit aways on either side ...

1241129 New Railroad King
1241298 EF Rucher, Special, Allegan MI

The rest of this thread though is Elgin Watch Co. data and is being recorded by John Fogarty to this Elgin private-label database at this location ...

Elgin Private-Labels (http://www.nawcc-info.org/Fogarty/ElginPrivateAll.asp)

... and John is doing a great job with this and this is a great resource for Elgin and private-label collectors alike!

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

887985 - J.J. Meenach (marked DS Roman dial only)

1673050 - T.J. Carroll, Hamilton Ont (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

3115091 - Hayter, Kansas City MO (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

5771746 - Johan Sverdrup, Elgin IL (marked movement)

5995578 - S.L. Hart, Flemington NJ (marked SS Arabic dial only)

7408001 - Cady & Olmstead, Kansas City MO (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

8082162 - Ricker (marked SS Roman dial only)

12201035 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and SS Arabic dial only)

18799147 - Von Gunten Bros., Chatham Ont. (marked SS Roman dial, factory marked 2-tone 15J movement)

27126796 - Turner Brothers, Chicago (marked SS Roman dial only)

Fred

[bernie levine]

1301887 Harry R. Smith Cincinnati, Ohio.

Movement: Ill 17 j grade 177 model 4 marked
H.R.S. Cinti,Ohio
Dial: Double sunk fancy roman numerals
Marked H.R.S.

INCIDENTALLY: Harry R. Smith owned an upscaled jewerly store
in the later part of the 1800's and held a patent #133264
(1872) for the improvement in stemwind and setting watches.

[Hairline]

Hello All,

Elgin 16S 17J 15731025, singlr sunk dial dial marked: Paillard Non-Magnetic Watch Company Chicago,Ill U.S.A. Has the "white" (non-magnetic) hairspring. The only markings on the movement is "17 Jewels" and the serial number. Tom
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/milkbottledude/detail?.dir=/812f&.dnm=4286.jpg&.src=ph http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/milkbottledude/detail?.dir=/812f&.dnm=50a4.jpg&.src=ph

[John F]

Fred - Thanks for the additional data and kind words (although anyone reading this should know that Fred's tireless searching for data on PLs of all makes is probably doing more to add to the knowledge base than any other individual).

Tom (Hairline)- welcome to the Board, and thanks for the data, too! Your pictures aren't showing up, though. Can you try again? (Or, if you still run into difficulty, you can send me the pics and I will post them for you.)

John

[John F]

Here are the pictures that Tom sent me for posting. They're a little small, but large enough to see that it has a "depressed" center for the DS dial (seen in many Elgin-Paillards).
[Edited to re-size pictures]
http://static.flickr.com/39/87803176_adcab9a7ae_m.jpg http://static.flickr.com/41/87803177_8b3a47ce60_m.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

1865963 - E.T. Davis, Mitchell Ont. (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin Natl. Watch Co." dial)

2081951 - George Pringle, Guelph Ont. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

3277283 - Chas. W. Brown, Charlestown W.Va.

4896492 - W.H. Kearney, Renfrew & Pembroke (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

7127147 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked movement, SS Arabic "Atlas Watch Co." dial)

12048715 - H.M. Heckart, Springfield MO (marked SS Arabic dial only)

15085005 - D.H. Patterson, Strathroy (marked movement, recessed center 24 hour Roman "Elgin" dial)

17575328 - Paul & McDonald, Elgin, Vancouver B.C. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

Edward J. Jensen, Milwaukee (signed blue and gold 12 size fancy dial)

Kracker & Kosinski, Chicago (marked gold, gray, and black 18 size fancy dial)

[Fred Hansen]

http://images.snapfish.com/345%3B8%3B%3A%3C6%7Ffp336%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4 %3A%3EWSNRCG%3D32334%3A6276%3A64nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/345%3B8%3B%3A%3C6%7Ffp336%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4 %3A%3EWSNRCG%3D32334%3A6282%3C28nu0mrj

12285095 - "The Atlantic", N. Gamse, New York (text marked on both movement and DS Roman dial, quotation symbols marked on movement only)

[Fred Hansen]

1376172 - Jas. A. Haas & Co., Phila PA. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

1773073 - L.F. Chapman, Franklin PA (marked movement)

3277283 - Chas. W. Brown, Charlestown W.Va. (marked SS Roman dial only)

8984512 - Geo H. Cook & Co., Arizona (marked dial only)

12593524 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked SS Arabic fancy dial only)

13324646 - H.E. Hillman & Co., Wheeling W. Va. (marked dial only)

16166701 - Anna L. Silveira, ourives E Relojoeira Portugueza, 76 Jackson St., San Francisco (marked SS fancy Roman dial, factory marked 17J movement with gilt trim)

17213101 - J.A. Floyd, Mattawa (marked Arabic 24 hour dial)

18691646 - Elgin, Specially manufactured for Kenochsberg Son & Co Ltd. (marked SS Roman dial only, watch listed by UK eBay seller)

19711844 - Strand (marked movement)

Fred

[John F]

Great looking Gamse, Fred - yours? I think all of the Gamse PLs have had some type of flourish to them - gold movement screws, fancy dial, etc. I don't recall seeing one with a gold-colored index, though. Nice touch!

[Fred Hansen]

It is John, and cased in a well worn but apparently original 4 ounce sterling case ... but a swing-out so easier to take photos of just the movement.

Fred

[Eric Kroon]

tj thomas "special" Aberdeen Wash serial number 15698081

[brg404]

FYI, The URL for your list is no longer working (from page 1 of this topic). Did I miss an
updated list pointer?

Not sure if you have these 18S elgin Keywinds:

303431 Harry M Carle Indianapolis (elgin nat'l dial) Manf'd ELGIN ILLs (solid balance cock)

326191 E.L.M. Thomas (E.L.M. Thomas Dial) Manf'd ELGIN ILLs (with balance cock cutout)

[John F]

Nope! Didn't have those - thanks for the additional data. The ELM Thomas with the cut out balance cock fits right into a run of several like this private labeled for a number of different jewelers. Also, you're right about the link, which has changed since this effort started a few years back - it's here (http://www.nawcc-info.org/Fogarty/fogarty.htm).

Eric - is your TJ Thomas marked like that on the dial, the movement, or both?

Thanks!

[Eric Kroon]

Both movement and dial. have you seen any more of these?

[John F]

No I haven't seen any other TJ Thomas. In fact, the TJ Thomas and ELM Thomas noted above are the first "Thomas"'s of any kind.

[brg404]

John,

I wanted to let you know that I checked the
Elgin Keywind (303431 Harry M Carle) I noted
above and found the balance cock is from a
different watch - likely the dial also. Just
wanted to make sure your records were correct.

[John F]

Thanks for the update on your Harry M Carle. Unless the dial is clearly inappropriate for the period, it may be original - many early PLs are marked on the movement only, and the 303431 serial number would be after Elgin made the switch from "National" to "Elgin Nat'l" dials in 1874.

[LloydB]

This resembles one already in your database:

Elgin 12402593
Dial label (only): Braun & Schreiter, La Crosse WI
Grade 288 18s 7j 1905 ofn5p
No unusual markings on movement

The firm was established in 1892 by
Mr. Robert Braun and Mr. Wm. Schreiter.

I knew Adolph Braun, one of 2 sons who
were watch and clock makers in La Crosse.

Lloyd Bogart

[Fred Hansen]

75950 - Chas Lundberg & Co., Negaunee Le L. Mich., Manufd Elgin Ills (marked movement, SS Roman "National Watch Co." dial)

1378803 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ills (marked SS Roman dial only)

3229092 - Goddard & Moses, Richmond VA (marked dial and movement)

4023323 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked SS Arabic fancy dial only)

6351315 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill (marked movement and SS Arabic fancy dial)

6469589 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

8512091 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill (marked movement and SS Roman fancy dial)

9086017 - F.W.Butler, Albion NY (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

12652426 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

15497466 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[John F]

Thanks, Lloyd & Fred!

[Fred Hansen]

Glad to help this project John!

Some more for you ...

303645 - Chas. Heaton, Potsdam NY, Manfd. Elgin Ills. (marked movement with heart shaped piecing in balance cock, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

3218897 - J.B. Miller, Portland Oregon (marked movement and DS dial)

8620047 - Constant, St. Louis (marked movement, SS Roman "Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis" dial)

9082861 - Ellis Fingham (marked SS "Runic" style dial only ... letters in place of hour numerals with "E" at the 12 O'clock position)

10852708 - John Wanamaker, Phila - New York (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

11671511 - C.F. Bauer, Saginaw. W.S., Mich. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12158073 - Made Especially for R.D. Worrell Co. by Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

15124575 - John Wanamaker, Phila - New York (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

17014908 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

C.W. Lockwood, Hempstead NY (marked SS Roman 18 size dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

8245111 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

8783189 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked SS Arabic dial only with no seconds-bit)

11949185 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12428438 - American Household, Chicago (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12495992 - Watson & Davis, Bronson Mich. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

13326666 - Chittenden, Des Moines IA (marked recessed center Roman dial only)

15378237 - H.S. Siebel, Saginaw W.S. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

16045275 - W. Dunkling, 315 - 317 Bourke St., Melbourne, Made in America (marked SS Roman dial only, Australian private label)

16501011 - Laurel M. Hoyt, Special, Hillsboro Ore. (marked SS Arabic dial and movement)

18221013 - C.J. Peterson, Jeweler, Geneva Ill. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

245181 - L. Long, Mansfield Ohio, Manfd Elgin Ills. (marked movement, SS Roman "National Watch Co." dial)

1681006 - S. & T. Child, Philadelphia (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

5515586 - E. Atler, Newark NJ (marked dial only)

8931086 - Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Arabic dial only)

9879591 - B.T. Hoffmann, Chicago (marked SS Roman dial only)

10420971 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

11076760 - Jas. C. Fischer, Flemingsburg KY (marked SS Roman dial only)

11164863 - Balghowski Special (marked SS Roman dial only)

12784085 - Elgin, H.O. Bonine, Fresno Cal. (marked DS Arabic dial only, 3 finger bridge Veritas movement)

14626713 - Unsweetened St. Charles Cream (marked SS Arabic dial with image of cow)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

303718 - Geo. Hagey & Son, Sterling Ill., Manfd. Elgin Ills. (marked movement with cut-out balance cock, SS Roman "Elgin Nat's Watch Co." dial)

3276673 - John M. Hubbard & Bro., Anderson S.C. (marked SS Roman dial only)

4465605 - Jos. Dodd, Cartersville Ills. (marked dial only)

6446281 - J. Ackermann, New York (marked SS Roman dial only)

7777010 - H. Muhr's Sons, Philadelphia PA (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

10068744 - Theo. A. Ebeling, St. Louis (marked SS Roman dial only)

13322074 - M. Schucht, Milwaukee Wis. (marked SS Roman dial only with blue lettering and markings)

17015744 - TASCO Special (marked movement, dial marked "The Albert S. Samuels Co., San Francisco")

19571628 - Strand (marked movement)

The Consolidated Time Lock Co. (marked nickel 18 size movement, in typical metal vault timer casing, porcelain disc marked "Consolidated Time Lock Co., Cinti O.")

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://images.snapfish.com/33%3A9%3B%3C%3A723232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3 D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323552874%3A8%3Bot1lsi

http://images.snapfish.com/33%3A9%3B%3C%3A723232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3 D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323552876757ot1lsi

382055 - Ingersoll & Sheppard, Carbondale Ill, Manfd Elgin Ill, So. Ills., Normal (marked movement, SS Roman "Normal, Carbondale Ills" dial, 4 oz. Dueber coin case appears original)

Fred

[John F]

Thanks for all the data, Fred - and the "Normal" you've pictured looks to be in really great shape. Can you double-check the serial number? The SN records show 332055 as part of a run of 10 size Dexter St. Possibly 382055? Or have we possibly identified an error in the records?

By the way, the online database is about due for an update. It was last updated in June of last year. I have about 350 new or corrected entries to make.

John

[Fred Hansen]

Hi John -

Nice catch ... it was a typo above and it should read 382055. I will edit the error above so that it reads correctly.

Thanks,
Fred

p.s. Looking forward to the update! :smile:

[Fred Hansen]

http://images.snapfish.com/34343%3C6323232%7Ffp47%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3% 3B%3DXROQDF%3E23237%3A3%3A36758ot1lsi

4051881 - Order of Railway Conductors, Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. (marked dial only, factory marked B.W. Raymond movement)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

16677407 - Paillard Non-Magnetic Watch Co., Chicago Ill. USA (marked movement and double-sunk Arabic dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

254639 - John Diesfeld, Port Perry Ont. (marked movement with cutout balance cock, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

254745 - A.C. Axman, Germantown O. (marked movement with cutout balance cock, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

2365806 - Lyman Hall, Skaneateles NY (marked SS Roman dial and movement)

4009299 - Boyne & Badger, Charlotte NC (marked SS Roman dial and movement)

9792632 - C.D. Peacock (marked dial)

12459146 - A.J. Stoessel, Milwaukee Wis. (marked SS Arabic dial ... blue letters and numbers)

13795829 - Grassie & Co., Vancouver B.C. (marked SS Roman 24 hour dial only)

16166701 - Anna L. Silveira, Ourives E. Relojoeira Portugueza, 76 Jackson St., San Francisco (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

29923706 - Stevenson Bros. Ltd., Adelaide, Made in USA (marked SS Roman dial only ... Australian private-label)

M. Bilsky & Son, Ottawa Ont. (marked DS Arabic 24 hour dial on 23J 18 size Veritas movement)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://images1.snapfish.com/3476387%3C4%7Ffp345%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3E WSNRCG%3D3233957537859nu0mrj

W.A. Bailey (marked SS and DS 16 size radial Arabic dials)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://images1.snapfish.com/3476387%3C4%7Ffp343%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3E WSNRCG%3D323395754984%3Cnu0mrj

A.N. Anderson, Standard Time (marked 16 size DS Arabic 24 hour dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://images1.snapfish.com/3476387%3C4%7Ffp33%3B%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A% 3EWSNRCG%3D3233957549863nu0mrj

http://images1.snapfish.com/3476387%3C4%7Ffp33%3B%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A% 3EWSNRCG%3D323395753785%3Anu0mrj

Fine Time (marked 12 size SS Roman dial ... also with image of eye surrounded by letter "C")

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

7724529 - C.F. Howard, Wakefield Nebr. (marked SS Roman dial only)

9226260 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement, SS Roman fancy "Elgin" dial)

10497055 - Geo. Fake, Oakland Cal. (marked DS Arabic dial only)

10804870 - T.C. Tanke, Buffalo NY (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

12857350 - Lambert Bros. (marked SS Roman dial only)

15447096 - I. Dubrow, 632 South St., Philadelphia (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

15540007 - J.A. Thomason, Salem Va. (marked DS Arabic marginal minute dial only)

Fred

[Steve W]

A late reply here, I must admit and a little off-topic.
I have wondered for YEARS who N. Gamse was and what he made or sold. I have a wall clock with his advertising on it that my dad found in some rubbish back somewhere in Wellesley, Mass. around 1965. It's about 3 feet high and 16" or so wide, two panels of glass, the lower of which says "PRESENTED BY / N. GAMSE / 15-17-19 Maiden Lane / NEW YORK / Catalogues free upon request." The wood is oak and the movement is from Gilbert in Conn (logo clearly seen).

If anyone cares to see a picture I can take one. I googled the name "N. Gamse" tonight again just to see if I could find anything and hit upon your board here.

Thanks much for solving a very old mystery for me!

Steve

w1es@mebtel.net

[Fred Hansen]

Trying to keep you busy John ...

304054 - O.C. Dow, St. Johnsbury VT (marked 11 jewel KW movement with pierced balance cock)

507641 - Bradley, Petersfield (marked DS Roman dial without seconds-bit, 17 size UK export cased in open face silver Dennison case)

1673038 - H.M. Jacobson, Albany NY (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

2108735 - Constant, St. Louis (marked movement, SS Roman "Mermod Jaccard & Co." dial with bold signature lettering)

2798872 - F.W. Poland, Alleghany PA (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin Natl Watch Co." dial)

3831327 - Johan Sverdrup, Elgin Ill. (marked movement, SS Roman "Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill." marked dial)

4465605 - Jos. Dodd, Carterville Ill. (marked SS Roman dial only)

8088702 - W.F. Sellers & Co., Altoona PA (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

9346161 - Lavine Bros., Johannesburg (marked SS Roman dial)

11834337 - J. Harrison, Pittsburg PA (marked SS Roman dial)

12201035 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

12285250 - A.N. Anderson, Standard Time (marked 24 hour DS Arabic dial)

13041539 - C.B. Wark, Prince Rupert B.C. (marked DS Arabic 24 hour dial, grade 349 movement signed "5 Positions" at right side of barrel bridge, coin silver A.W.C.Co. case)

13141576 - Arche M. McDougall, Winnipeg (marked SS Arabic 24 hour dial)

13438656 - Wm. Nicklas, Baltimore MD (marked SS Roman dial only)

14626713 - Unsweetened St. Charles Cream (marked dial with cow image)

14776351 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

16353188 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

17213101 - J.A. Floyd, Mattawa (marked faux DS Arabic 24 hour dial)

22251181 - T. McKinney (marked DS Roman dial)

Elgin, J.M. Wendt, Adelaide, Made in U.S.A. (marked SS Roman 16 size dial on 7 jewel factory marked movement, Australian private-label)

Consolidated Time Lock Co. (marked 15J 18 size nickel movement in vault timer)

Fred

[John F]

Thank you, Fred! I very much appreciate your (and others') contributions to this ongoing effort.

Just as a reminder, the online database for Elgin PLs is available to everyone right here (http://www.nawcc-info.org/Fogarty/fogarty.htm), and is generously hosted by Tom McIntyre. If you have an Elgin PL and don't see it in the database, please feel free to report it as part of this thread or email me at john-sarah@juno.com.

Thanks!

[Fred Hansen]

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPoo%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQoeoo0e0Q0l qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPoo%7CRup6ela%7C/of=50,461,443

205448 - S. & T. Child, Philadelphia, Manfd. Elgin Ills. (marked KW/KS movement with pierced balance cock, DS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

Interesting to note here that the consecutive number to this watch at 205447 is also in John's database, but is not marked to the same individual but rather to a jeweler out of Macon, Georgia.

Fred

[John F]

Just a note for folks that the online database (http://www.nawcc-info.org/Fogarty/fogarty.htm) has recently been updated. Over 400 new listings since the previous June 2005 update, along with corrections and additional data on a number of existing entries.

[Fred Hansen]

128744 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked DS Roman dial)

129122 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked DS Roman dial)

180937 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked DS Roman dial)

181107 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked DS Roman dial)

181719 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked DS Roman dial)

1055261 - Schmedtie Bros., Washington D.C. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

5151092 - C.H. Saake, Crookston Minn. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

6044005 - S.R. Stibgen, Marietta PA (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

8226015 - Howard Williams, Delavan Wis., Special 17 Jewels (marked movement, SS Roman "Howard Williams" dial)

8487150 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

8498197 - Calhoun & Co., Elgin, Nashville Tenn. (marked DS Arabic dial only)

9081019 - Standard, St. Louis (marked movement, SS Arabic "Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis" dial)

9787043 - H.W. Copp, San Francisco (marked movement, unusual "Rate Dial" ... tough to describe but photos in Ehrhardt's 1980 Price Indicator)

11192620 - Puritan, Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12517840 - Chas. Kranich, Phila PA (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

12840052 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and DS Roman dial)

12855014 - Constant, St. Louis (marked movement, SS Arabic "Mermod, Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis" dial)

13468582 - Savage & Co., Guelph (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

14056460 - Roy King, Superior Nebr. (marked SS Arabic dial with blue lettering and numbers)

19951912 - John Bain, Pittsburgh PA (marked SS Arabic dial only, factory marked movement)

24681661 - Paull & McDonald, Vancouver B.C. (marked SS Arabic 24 hour dial only)

Consolidated Time Lock Co. (marked 18 size movement in vault timer casing, serial number not visible)

Paull & McDonald, Vancouver B.C. (marked 18 size DS 24 hour Montgomery dial, 19J B.W. Raymond movement)

Wattles & Sheafer, Pittsburgh PA (marked 18 size SS Roman dial)

125243 - ??? (SS Roman dial but with curved signature scratched away, same size and shape as typical "Pennsylvania Railroad Co." signature)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

126153 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked SS Roman dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

10364545 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement and SS Arabic fancy dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

2127782 - E.L. Vognild, Chicago IL (marked movement and DS Roman dial)

2233188 - The R.W. Sears (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

3800593 - S.W. Fellows, Lawrence Mass. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

6676006 - Standard (marked movement, DS Arabic "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co., H" dial)

9789774 - Frank G. Will, Jeweler, Albany Oregon (marked SS Arabic fancy dial only)

C. Jansen (marked 16 size SS Roman fancy dial only)

[Fred Hansen]

9453705 - L.M. Philbin, LaFayette Ind. (marked SS Arabic fancy dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

One I no longer own but just found that I still had photos of ...

http://images.snapfish.com/34346%3A6%3B23232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B 3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E23237%3A662%3A4%3C%3Aot1lsi

http://images.snapfish.com/34346%3A6%3B23232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3 A%3EWSNRCG%3D3232894945454nu0mrj

303784 - Wait Dewey & Co., Ravenna O. (marked movement with cut-out balance cock)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

245722 - H.F. Andrews, Strasburg PA (marked movement with cutout balance cock, SS Roman "National Watch Co." dial)

2445502 - S & T Child, Philadelphia (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

8607926 - Ludwig Wolff, Canton Ohio (marked SS Roman dial only)

11147897 - Smith Bros., Est'd 1862, Elyria O. (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

13320361 - Lewy Bros. Co. (marked SS radial Arabic fancy dial only)

Fred

[Randy Becker]

Albert Pfeifer/Little Rock, Ark
Elgin.O size. Hunter case. Gold filled.
7jewels. sr#7958818. Circa 1898

[Fred Hansen]

329130 - J.W. Tucker & Co., San Francisco Cal. (marked movement with cutout balance cock, SS Roman "Tucker's Granger Watch" dial with image of a sheath of wheat)

8607926 - Ludwig Wolff, Canton Ohio (marked SS Roman dial only)

9370598 - Tall Bros., South Haven Mich. (marked SS Roman dial only)

9440781 - H.B. Potthoff, Latrobe PA (marked SS Roman dial only)

22439441 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

Ross Larrabee, Macon MO (marked SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPJe%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0QnGPPaQea qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPJe%7CRup6enQ%7C/of=50,448,443

5158044 - W.J. Sweet, Leesburg Fla. (marked SS Roman dial only, factory marked movement missing balance cock)

Fred

[R.Hallenbeck]

Cant quite figure out the first letter of this one so here is the picture.S# 4648106
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/141/328866691_587a9d29ca_o.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

That is "Irion & Girardet, Louisville KY" ... I've seen this pair of names on other private-labels before.

Fred

[John F]

Thanks for all the new data!

[R.Hallenbeck]

Thanks Fred, now I know for certain.
Ray

[Fred Hansen]

9905755 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement, fancy SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

14671892 - P. Hebner & Son, Boonville Ind. (marked SS Roman dial only)

16206388 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

17405848 - C B (or "B C" ... monogram marked SS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXP0o%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0Qneeenlol qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXP0o%7CRup6eol%7C/of=50,488,443

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPJQ%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0Qneeenloe qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPJQ%7CRup6enl%7C/of=50,445,443

1466651 - Holtby & Crawford, Woodstock Ont. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

Fred

[Modersohn]

6202413153

One sidenote:

Fred seems to be correct in identifying the name 'Irion'-- but having checked Wayne Schlitt's Elgin pages (and the Nawcc site, which also has references to this firm), I found that he seems to have misinterpreted the name as Prion.

Therefore I found references to "Prion and Girardet:" of Louisville Ky. on several private label watches listed in his database.

The name Irion seems to me much more likely, as I found a reference to an Irion jewelers in Kentucky, including a business card, possibly from the 1930's or 1940's for a "Matt Irion & Sons" of Louisville Ky.

Item number 6202413153.

Modersohn

[Fred Hansen]

2704436 - H.E. Hillman & Co., Wheeling W. Va. (marked DS Arabic dial only)

9779026 - C.D. Peacock (marked Arabic dial only)

9905755 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement, fancy SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

10554708 - Peter H. Loeper, Ashland PA (marked SS Arabic dial only)

11936548 - Hess & Culbertson Jewelry Co., St. Louis (marked movement, SS Arabic "Hess & Culbertson" dial)

12308048 - Fall Bros., South Haven Mich. (marked SS Arabic dial only with blue lettering and numerals)

13437437 - A. Newsalt, Dayton O. (marked SS Roman dial only)

13997722 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

14129075 - Ben Schneider Jewelry Co., Cincinnati O. (marked SS Arabic dial with blue numerals and lettering)

25535318 - Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Roman dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6eoo%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPJP%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0ooPlQanaQ qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPJP%7CRup6aQQ%7C/of=50,399,442

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPJJ%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0ooPlQanaP qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPJJ%7CRup6lPP%7C/of=50,580,443

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPJo%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0ooPlQanao qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPJo%7CRup6eaQ%7C/of=50,454,443

16621591 - Kansas City Life Special (signed movement, DS Arabic dial with "KCL" in colored logo, Fahy's Permanent gold-filled case marked "Kansas City Life Insurance Company, Kansas City MO." on cuvette)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

5538799 - W. Burr & Son, Carbondale PA (marked movement and DS Roman dial)

19568278 - Chas. Kuhn, 1748 Chouteau Ave., St. Louis MO (marked SS fancy radial Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXPJe%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0oeJePPGon qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPJe%7CRup6elo%7C/of=50,465,443

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6ePn%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXP00%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQ0oeJePPGJe qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXP00%7CRup6aQQ%7C/of=50,398,442

11822999 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

More sightings ...

309004 - Made Expressly for B.L. Stone, Portland O., Manf'd Elgin Ill., Adjusted (marked movement with no balance cutout, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l. Watch Co." dial)

3528991 - C.P. Barnes & Bro., Louisville KY (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

6355917 - State Street (marked movement, SS Roman 24 hour "Elgin Nat'l. Watch Co." dial)

7958818 - Albert Pfeiffer, Little Rock Ark. (marked SS Roman dial only)

7958906 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only)

10111935 - Commonwealth, Elgin Nat.l Watch Co. (marked SS Arabic dial only)

10366913 - Balghowsky Special (marked SS Roman dial only)

10468716 - P. Castagnetto, San Francisco Cal. (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

12047051 - Brock & Feagans, Los Angeles (marked SS Arabic dial only)

13109764 - F.T. Tyrrell, Rutland VT (marked SS Arabic recessed center dial only)

14170928 - H.F. Steck (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

19779958 - Strand (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

20595099 - Fine Time (marked SS Arabic fancy dial also with image of an eye inside the letter "C")

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Another pair from down South ...

18607304 - Stevenson Bros., Adelaide (marked SS Roman dial which is also signed "Made in U.S.A." in small letters under the seconds-bit, factory marked Elgin movement)

22742364 - W.C. Nicol, Watchmaker and Jeweler, Bowral (marked SS Roman dial, factory marked Elgin movement)

Interesting to me that there are apparently a number of these private-label Elgins that made their way to Australia.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Found one I noted at a show last year ...

8488012 - E.V. Roddin & Co., Chicago (marked movement and DS Arabic dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Trying my best to keep John busy ...



205072 - J.W. Tucker & Co., San Francisco Cal. (SS Roman "Tucker's Granger Watch" dial with same image as 18 size Tucker's Granger dials)

326222 - W.H. Joslin, Holland Mich., Manfd. Elgin Ills. (marked movement with cut-out balance cock, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

372394 - Henry Reib, Davenport Iowa (marked movement)

2156054 - Riggs & Brother, Philadelphia (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

2233258 - The R.W. Sears (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

2680792 - Thomas H. Tilden, Boston Mass. (marked movement, DS Arabic "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

3102194 - M. Judd, Toledo Ohio (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

3511392 - M.L. Merriman, Copenhagen NY (marked movement, SS Roman "Copenhagen NY" dial)

3528991 - C.P. Barnes & Bros., Louisville KY (marked movement and dial)

3922786 - Johan Sverdrup, Elgin Ill. (marked movement, SS Roman "Rovalstad Bros., Elgin Ill." dial)

3922958 - Johan Sverdrup, Elgin Ill. (marked movement, SS Arabic unsigned fancy dial)

4042134 - J. Glick, Stockton Cal. (marked SS Roman dial only)

4207933 - F.C. Freeman, Newboro (marked SS Roman dial only)

5995578 - S.L. Hart, Flemington NJ (marked SS Arabic dial only)

7335027 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement and SS Roman fancy color dial)

7958818 - Albert Pfeifer, Little Rock Ark. (marked dial)

7958906 - C.D. Peacock (marked dial)

8504027 - Duhme Bros. & Co., Cincinnati (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

9706444 - C. Kibele & Co., Philadelphia PA (marked SS Roman dial only)

10111935 - Commonwealth (marked dial)

10366913 - Balghowsky Special (marked dial)

10468716 - P. Castagnetto, San Francisco Cal. (marked dial)

11151885 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked DS Roman dial only)

11692885 - S.H. Asquith & Bro., Waterloo Iowa (marked SS Arabic fancy color dial only)

12031041 - For Ben Schneider Jewelry Co. Cincinnati Ohio by Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. (marked movement, SS Arabic "Ben Schneider Jewelry Co. Cincinnati Ohio" dial)

12166799 - Ben Schneider Jewelry Co., Cincinnati Ohio (marked DS Arabic dial)

12047051 - Brock & Feagans, Los Angeles (marked dial)

12374094 - Standard, St. Louis (marked movement)

12419236 - D.F. Dubbs, Hanover PA (marked SS Arabic dial only)

12854073 - H.A. Bump, Oklahoma City Okla. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

12855050 - Frank C. Toepp, South Bend Ind. (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

12996448 - E.J. Avery, Grand Haven Mich. (marked dial)

13015140 - C.C. Bradley & Co., Batavia NY (SS Arabic dial only)

13109764 - F.T. Tyrrell, Rutland VT (marked SS Arabic dial with recessed center section)

13480142 - A. Hahn, Durango Colo. (SS Arabic dial only with blue markings on cream color background)

13953830 - R.L. Christie, Bank St., Edinburgh (marked SS Roman dial only)

14599000 - J.A. Lewis, Pittston PA (SS Arabic dial only)

15085038 - Talcott Bros., Olympia Wash. (marked movement and dial)

15447096 - I. Dubrow, 632 South St., Philadelphia (marked SS Roman fancy dial only)

16206634 - Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis (marked dial)

17015072 - Made Expressly for The Albert S. Samuels Co. (marked movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

17178770 - Charles & Co., 17 Banelagh St., Liverpool (marked SS Roman dial only, might be error in street name?)

18281702 - Rudd & Neilson, Perth Ont. (marked movement and SS Arabic dial)

19779958 - Strand (marked movement)

20595099 - Fine Time (marked fancy color dial only, also has large letter "C" on dial with image of an eye inside the letter)



Fred

[Dave Coatsworth]

15230990 - SS Arabic dial marked Bastian Bros. Co.

[LloydB]

Just spotted this one today at a local antique mall;

Elgin 1875 Grade 57
sn 371223

marked dial and mov't
Rovelstadt Bros

(It's a bit older than the others in the DB)


LloydB

[Fred Hansen]

More for John ...

2673759 - F.L. Barnard, Lynn Mass. (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

3436993 - Henry Ritter, Chicago IL (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

4755160 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin IL (marked dial and movement)

5356494 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles (marked movement, SS Roman unsigned dial)

5890588 - Wheeler & Gee Ltd., Cardiff (marked movement, SS Roman unsigned dial, English silver case)

10831026 - Frisch Bros., Buffalo NY (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

12072396 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial)

12375316 - The Workman (marked dial)

13489044 - Constant, St. Louis (marked movement, SS bold Arabic "Elgin" dial)

19637534 - Strand (marked 17J 4 Pos. movement, SS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

24032081 - Elgin, Montgomery Bros. (marked dial)

24099716 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked dial)

26784026 - Dictator (marked movement, SS Arabic marginal numeral "Elgin" dial)

Fred

[Jerry Freedman]

Has anyone ever seen a movment marked for C D Peacock?

[Fred Hansen]

I've never seen an Elgin movement marked for C.D. Peacock, all Elgins I've seen have been dial only.

If I am remembering right a friend may own a Swiss watch that is marked on the movement for Peacock but I am not sure of this.

Fred

[Jeff Hess]

couple fo things..

I have had several watches from AC Smith after he moved to Mexico.

Also, came across this interesting little thing in the Ball family collection...


Amazing how little it would cost to get your name on a watch dial! Private label? 40 cents!

Jeff

[Jeff Hess]

oops here is the pic!

[Fred Hansen]

More Elgin private-labels ...

4097027 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

7815802 - Made for M.C. Conner, Burlington IA by the Elgin Nat'l Watch Co., Elgin Ill. (marked movement, SS Roman fancy color "Burlington Special" dial)

8000776 - America, Philadelphia USA (marked movement and unsunk Roman dial)

9992008 - Made for M.C. Conner, Burlington Iowa (marked movement, SS Roman "Elgin" dial)

10043025 - Loeper Special (marked movement, SS Roman "Peter H. Loeper, Ashland PA" dial)

10451680 - A.B. Hubermann, Omaha (marked SS Roman dial only)

11151886 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked DS Roman dial only)

11608015 - Standard, St. Louis (marked movement, SS Arabic "Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis" dial)

12166480 - Lambert Bros. (marked DS Arabic dial only)

13108484 - F.A. Defiel, St. Paul Minn. (marked SS and recessed center Arabic dial only)

14755878 - W.W. Matthews, Winnipeg (marked DS Roman 24 hour dial only)

15213418 - G.H. Elvis, Medford Wis. (marked SS Roman dial only)

15864006 - John Wannamaker, New York and Phila (marked movement, SS Arabic "Wannamaker, Elgin" dial)

16053685 - Ralph Hogan, Akron Ohio (marked SS Arabic dial only)

19451971 - Hammond Bros., Cohoes NY (marked SS Arabic dial only)

19952584 - Strand (marked movement, SS and recessed center Arabic "Elgin" dial)

No serial # - Benedict Bros., 171 Broadway NY (marked 18s 15J Adjusted gilt KW movement, no engraved serial but had neatly handscratched number of 1769702 on main plate)

F.W. Badger, Beaumont Texas (marked DS Arabic 18 size 3/4 plate model dial)

Fred

[BrianC]

I have an 0s Elgin, H/C movement ser. #8,286,063 signed Wm. B. Joseph. on the dial, and Wm. B. Joseph. Hudson, N.Y. on the movement.
Hope this helps.
Brian C.

[Fred Hansen]

9193177 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only)

[Fred Hansen]

239021 - Wood Bros., 89 Central St., Lowell Mass., Manfd Elgin Ills. (marked KW/KS movement ... crown on case is fixed and only functions to release rear lid, SS Roman "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co." dial)

[Fred Hansen]

13476096 - Thalhofer, Elgin, Loaner (Marked DS Arabic dial only, factory marked 21J movement with striped damaskeen)

Question of the day ... who was Thalhofer and where was he from?

[Kent]

Fred:

Thanks for showing us a neat watch!

You may not be aware of it (or you might be), but the book Railroad Timekeeping, James L. Hernick, NAWCC Chicagoland Chapter #3 and the Midwest Regional Convention, 1996, shows Elgin serial number 13,476,092 bearing a dial marked "G.C. Hill Elgin Loaner 349 Special."

We (Ed and I) don't have any other reports of movements in the first hundred of the run (13,476,001 - 13,476,100). We'd love to find out if these all had private label dials, especially loaner dials. So, if anybody has a movement and dial from that serial number range to report, now would be a good time. Of course dial swapping might have affected these.

The run (13,476,001 - 13,477,000) is nominally a run of grade No. 349. Nevertheless, serial number 13,476,195 is marked "Father Time." The other eight reported movements from the run in our data base are above 13,476,201 and seem to be marked "No. 349." So, again, if anybody has a movement from the serial number range 13,476,101 - 13,476,201 to report (marked No. 349 or Father Time, or something else), now would be a good time for that was well.

Thanks,

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Kent ... I remembered that one pictured there but I had not checked the number and didn't realize it was that close. I believe that #13476092 also has the striped damaskeen which is less common to this grade. I'll definitely keep an eye out for others from this grade and report back anything I see.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

T.A. Iler, Jackson Miss. (marked SS Roman 18 size dial only)

[Fred Hansen]

4329517 - Webb C. Ball, Cleveland O. (marked SS Arabic dial which is also signed "O'hara Waltham Dial Co." on the rear, factory marked movement)

[StephanG]

Enter private whisper here



Hello Fred
I have 1 private label Elgin
16 size o/f 17j #6589102

on dial T.C.TANKE
on movement T.C.Tanke Buffalo

Please add to your list if you don't have him yet

Happy to post pictures if you want them.

Steve

[Fred Hansen]

The info from this one was posted in this thread a few years ago, but here are pics of #15349253 ...

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=2536

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=2540

... and from some Google searching I believe the dial was likely marked this way for the "Ox Fibre Brush Company".

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Serial #1325769 has "Simons Bros., Columbus O." marked on the dial only ...

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=2531

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=2535

Fred

[Joe Kendall]

Fred,

Concerning your question on who Thalhofer might have been and where from for that THALHOFER ELGIN LOANER watch you posted I did a little digging in the US census. Figured that name couldn't be too common so worth a shot. In the 1880 census I found a Andrew Thalhofer listed as a watchmaker and living in Chicago, Ill. He was listed as living in the household of his father and only 14 at the time so must have been an apprentice. In the 1920 census there is an Andrew Thalhofer (age 54) listed as a jewelery store manager in Chicago, Ill. There is no listing for Andrew Thalhofer in the 1890, 1900, or 1910 census so now the question is where did he go for 40 years?

Gosh I love private labels.

Joe

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Joe!

I think the fun thing about the jeweler marked private-labels is that they add a layer of history to the watch by tying it to a specific time and place and this can be very interesting to try to research this history.

Fred

[Joe Kendall]

Here is one from my collection:

13868902 D.M. Leach Caney, Kans. (ss Roman R5M dial only)

Joe

[Fred Hansen]

100 more private-label Elgin sightings to keep John busy ...

30040 - C. Oskamp, Cincinnati Ohio (marked movement, SS Roman “National Watch Co.” dial)

150525 - Geo W. Chatterton, Springfield Ill. (marked movement, SS Roman “National Watch Co.” dial)

246594 - J. Clinton Tribby, Washington D.C. (marked bold Arabic dial which I believe looks much later than movement)

254916 - H.F. Andrews, Strasburg PA (marked movement, SS Roman “National Watch Co.” dial)

303731 - I.H. Lynch, Greenville Ohio (Possibly “J” for first initial, marked movement with usual heart shaped cutout in balance cock, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

1868015 - H. Carpenter, Flushing NY (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

2299954 - 120 Dudley St., Boston (marked movement, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

2684342 - Rovelstad Bros., Elgin Ill. (marked movement and DS Roman dial)

2868487 - Standard (marked movement, DS Roman “Hammond & Guild, Buffalo NY” dial)

3043460 - H.E. Hillman & Co., Wheeling W. Va. (marked DS Roman dial)

3517891 - H.O. Richardson, Haverhill Mass. (marked movement, DS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” marked dial)

3574591 - L.T. Chapman, Franklin PA (marked movement, SS Arabic “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” marked dial)

3815792 - Buder Bros., Columbus Miss. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

4008296 - W. Goeggel, Woodland Cal. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

4692093 - J.W. Talbot (marked movement, SS Arabic “J.W. Talbot, Nevada MO” dial)

4695791 - Standard (marked movement, DS Arabic “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

4741092 - August Krautheim, Muskegon Mich (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

4936993 - Special, A.D. Selover, Newark NJ (marked movement, SS Roman “Elgin” fancy dial)

6457236 - Specially Examined by R.G. Wehrley, Johannesburg (marked SS Roman dial)

7437735 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial)

7522003 - “Glen Haven”, Howard Williams, Delavan Wis. (Marked movement, SS Roman “Howard Williams, Delavan Wis.” dial)

7685003 - Otto Burklund, Osawatomie Kans. (marked movement and SS Roman fancy dial)

8810811 - Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Arabic dial)

9200054 - Mutrie Bros., Grand Valley (marked SS 24 hour dial)

9229721 - Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Roman fancy dial, 14K case marked “Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis”)

9276178 - C.D. Peacock (marked dial)

9787055 - B.H. Steif Jewelry Co., RR Special, Nashville Tenn. (marked movement and DS Arabic dial)

9788596 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (marked SS Roman dial)

10114105 - H. Muhr’s Sons, Incorporated, Philadelphia (marked SS Arabic dial)

10126034 - Elgin Paramount (marked metal dial)

10128050 - Elgin, The Railroader (marked SS Arabic Montgomery dial)

10249480 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial)

10249820 - Lord Elgin (marked movement, not a private-label but uncommon marking to grade 156)

10358253 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

10804185 - Constant, St. Louis (marked movement, “Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis-New York” dial)

10818032 - Anna L. Silveira, 62 Jackson St., San Francisco Cal. (marked movement and SS Roman fancy dial)

10976155 - D. Buchanan & Son, Richmond VA (marked SS Arabic dial)

11022269 - Frank Mayr & Sons (marked fancy color SS Roman dial)

11229496 - S.H. Abbott, McKinney Texas (marked SS Arabic dial)

11444777 - T.S. Lockhart, Kenosha Wis. (marked SS Roman dial)

11569626 - GEM (marked DS Arabic dial, “GEM” letters in fancy script)

11630320 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

11686207 - H.J. Cook Co., Knoxville Tenn. (marked SS Arabic dial)

11738591 - St. Charles Cream, Unsweetened (marked dial also with image of cow)

11749422 - Kortkamp Jewelry Co., St. Louis (marked SS Arabic dial)

11750352 - Wm. Leive & Sons, Aurora Ind. (marked SS Roman dial)

12021080 - Standard, St. Louis USA (marked movement, SS Arabic “Mermod, Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis” dial, 14K case serial #262586 marked “Mermod, Jaccard & King, St. Louis - New York”)

12026029 - Bulger’s Special (marked movement, SS Roman “Elgin Nat’l Watch Co.” dial)

12117983 - Frank Mayr & Sons (marked SS Roman dial)

12153015 - Imperial, St. Louis, USA (marked movement, SS Arabic “Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis” dial, 14K gold “Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis” marked case)

12163041 - For Ben Schneider Jewelry Co., Cincinnati Ohio, by Elgin Nat’l Watch Co. (Marked movement, SS Roman “Ben Schneider Jewelry Co., Cincinnati O.” fancy dial)

12166480 - Lambert Bros. (marked DS Arabic dial)

12201081 - Lambert Bros. (marked movement and SS Roman dial)

12242882 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial)

12244982 - E.J. Avery, Grand Haven Mich. (marked SS Arabic dial)

12369266 - A. Aman & Co., Dayton OH (marked SS Arabic dial with blue markings and lettering)

12371390 - H. Dearing, Balto MD (marked SS Arabic dial)

12374109 - Standard, St. Louis USA (marked movement, SS Roman “Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis” dial, 14K gold case signed “Mermod Jaccard & King, St. Louis - New York”)

12374237 - Standard, St. Louis USA (marked movement, SS Roman “Mermod Jaccard & King Co., St. Louis” dial)

12430889 - A. Engelmann, Chicago (marked SS Arabic dial)

12431788 - H.E. Hulett & Son, Jeweler, Marshall Mich. (marked SS Roman dial)

12530558 - A. Schemel, 1953 Central Ave., Cincinnati O. (marked SS Roman dial)

12644737 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Roman dial)

12657429 - Elgin Government Special (marked DS Roman dial)

12725029 - E.F. Davis, Tillsonburg (marked movement, recessed center Roman 24 hour “Elgin” dial)

12978538 - H.G. Cook Co., Nashville TN (marked SS Roman dial with blue markings)

13202756 - M. Wojtecki, Chicago (marked fancy SS Roman dial)

13203423 - Mermod-Jaccard & King, St. Louis (marked SS Roman dial)

13467620 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

13522315 - Bischell’s, Sedalia MO (marked Arabic dial)

13792887 - B. Yehley, Delaware Ohio (marked SS Arabic dial)

14079161 - The Consolidated Time Lock Co. (Marked movement for bank vault timer mechanism)

14079479 - Made by Elgin Nat’l Watch Co. for N.C. Anstead, Fairfield Iowa (marked movement, SS Arabic “Elgin” dial)

14220488 - Elgin Nat’l Watch Co., Commonwealth (marked dial)

14495092 - Elgin, S. Blaser, Lansford PA (marked fancy color SS Roman dial)

14721859 - J.P. Wasilauckas, Waterbury Conn. (marked SS Roman dial)

15417790 - J. Ellias, Toronto Ont. (marked SS Roman dial)

15610014 - M.W. Attwood & Son, Hamilton Ont. (marked SS Arabic Montgomery dial)

15696029 - Made Especially for L.L. Moore, Seattle (marked movement, Arabic dial marked “L.L. Moore”)

15731806 - S.P, Walker, Hamilton Ont. (marked SS Arabic dial)

15873619 - Wm. C. Hessie, Saginaw Mich (marked SS Roman fancy color dial)

15909267 - A.H. Frandsen, Monmouth IL (marked SS Arabic dial)

16163296 - C.D. Peacock (marked metal dial)

16544636 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

17260242 - Knapp Jewelry Co., Belleville Ill. (marked SS Arabic dial)

17330072 - Mermod Jaccard & Co., St. Louis (marked SS Arabic dial)

17534099 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal. (Marked SS Arabic dial)

17901562 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial)

18658568 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic recessed center dial)

19460489 - Strand (marked 16 size movement, also marked “4 Adjustments”)

19571465 - Strand (marked movement)

20370799 - Robt. McDonald, Elgin, Vancouver B.C. (marked SS Arabic dial)

24891775 - Elgin Vernon (marked dial and movement)

28546030 - Dictator (marked movement)

36682997 - Elgin Paramount (marked metal dial)

Elgin, Nebraska (marked metal 12 size dial, watch in original box marked “The Elgin State Watch”)

Jaccard’s, Kansas City (marked SS Arabic 12 size dial

Tony Larsen, Jeweler, Rock Springs Wyo. (marked recessed center Roman 18 size dial only)

Albert H. Rolef, Lockland O. (marked SS Arabic 16 size dial, on apparently mixed movement with 2 serials of 9115017 and 12553854)

Weiler Bros., Quincy Ill. (Marked SS Arabic fancy 18 size dial)

[Fred Hansen]

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=3045

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=3047

11782156 - Bringe's, Milwaukee Wis. (marked SS Roman dial)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=3105

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/download.php?id=3106

6601391 - Mark H. Griffin, Aug. 20th 1900. (marked DS Roman dial)

Fred

[johnbscott]

This Odell dial was found on 18s BWR 9863751

[Jerry Treiman]

A recent post about possible earliest private label Elgins stirred a memory of one posted about six years ago. I snagged the picture at the time but failed to request permission to use it and can't even recall which board it came from. Although I don't feel I can re-post the image I can describe it. It is a model 1, 18-size, full-plate, keywind movement that is at least jeweled on the top plate (burnished settings). The serial number appears to be in the 7-thousands although the image is rather fuzzy. Other markings on the plates (top plate and barrel bridge) are entirely in Kanji characters and I am guessing this was for the Chinese or Japanese market. A pagoda is engraved on the balance cock. Does anyone know who may own this watch today?


[edit=10=1213776120]

[beta21]

I see Fred has recorded two earlier ones than the #150911 I have

Peter

[Fred Hansen]

328299 - Geo W. Biggs, Pittsburgh PA (marked movement with heart shaped balance cock cutout, SS Roman dial marked "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co.")

[Fred Hansen]

19022044 - Elite (marked 2-tone movement, DS Arabic "Elgin" dial)

[marking_time]

Fred Hansen listed 100 private label watches in post #196. I noticed several C.D. Peacock labeled watches. C.D. Peacock still exists and is the oldest retail jewelry store in Chicago, IL. Illinois Watch Co. also made some private label watches for them.
Mike Robie

[Fred Hansen]

Serial 1214005, 16 size and marked on the dial and movement with "C.F. Greenwood & Bro, Norfolk, VA" ...

[Fred Hansen]

Serial 76510, 10 size and marked on the movement with "N. Simpson, Waverly Iowa" ...

[crsides]

Geo. W. De Mars
Lawrence.