What tools are needed to change dial and hands?

[J.S.Parker]

I would like to change a broken dial and rusted hands on a 12s 15j Elgin that I have purchased for my daughter. Eventually I would like to learn to clean my own watches. What tools do I need to take a movement out of a case and swap out the dial and hands? I intend to purchase Fried's handbook for my primary knowledge base. I would also like to be able to take my dials out and clean them myself. I am on a very limited budget and would like to start tinkering as soon as possible. Any suggestions about what tools to get and where to get them would be appreciated. I would like the tools to be affordable, but still serviceable when I am able to expand.

Thanks,

John

[J.S.Parker]

I would like to change a broken dial and rusted hands on a 12s 15j Elgin that I have purchased for my daughter. Eventually I would like to learn to clean my own watches. What tools do I need to take a movement out of a case and swap out the dial and hands? I intend to purchase Fried's handbook for my primary knowledge base. I would also like to be able to take my dials out and clean them myself. I am on a very limited budget and would like to start tinkering as soon as possible. Any suggestions about what tools to get and where to get them would be appreciated. I would like the tools to be affordable, but still serviceable when I am able to expand.

Thanks,

John

[Greg Davis]

Not surprisingly, the correct tool for removing hands is a hand removal tool. They cost very little and can be obtained from S. Larose ( http://www.slarose.com ). Removing movements from cases requires little more than a properly sized screwdriver and a little bit of knowledge. Ditto for removing the dial.

[Jon Hanson]

A good, sharp screw driver set, a hand puller and an undamaged pair of tweezers!

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[J.S.Parker]

I had figured on getting these, but what I have seen is a vise-like tool to re-install the hands. It costs more than a puller, screwdrivers, and tweezers put together. Is it necessary, or can the puller be used to install hands?

John

[Charles Medsker]

As Jon Hanson suggested in the tools required, you can use the tweezers to re-install the hands. Make sure the hour and minute wheels are in place, and dial washer, if one was there, put back on the wheel.

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Charles Medsker
Indianapolis, IN
NAWCC #54809
Member Indiana Chapter #18

[Jerry Treiman]

Although it might not matter for an old broken dial, some sort of dial protector is recommended, especially for metal or plastic/melamine dials. All you need is a thin piece of acetate or mylar film (photographic film works, or even a piece of paper) into which you cut a long V-notch. Slide this in between the hands and dial before you remove the hands to protect the dial from scratches.

[Jon Hanson]

Yes, CM is correct--make sure the pinion is down all the way on the center wheel arbor and the the motion works wheels are "tight." Reinstall the hands with a tweezer but be careful that the hand held doesn't "fly"--much time can be wasted looking for "flying" hands and case screws! :biggrin:

Jon

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[Jon Hanson]

AND, if it is REALLY rusted-try some Liquid Wrench on the dial feet screws! :biggrin:

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[Barry G]

A very, very small screwdriver with a strong head. Those dial screws are really tiny and can be awfully tight.

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[J.S.Parker]

Does anyone have any specific recommendations on screwdrivers? I have some precision screwdrivers that I got from Sears a few years ago. They are not sharp enough, I suppose. I can't even use them on the case screws of my 18s Elgin. I have found quite a selection on eBay and with online retailers, but what sizes will I need and should I look for a specific brand?

Thanks again for your suggestions, this is going to be some good, clean, mechanical fun.

John

[Jon Hanson]

You need watchmakers' screw drivers. Don't buy the cheap ones-they are worthless! You should get the high quality ones with the replaceable heads.



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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[GandalfPC]

A 2mm for the case screws and a .6mm for the dial screws should be right.

For a single task I am sure that the cheaper sets from india that you see on ebay will be fine... If you intend to do it alot get the best you can afford.

Bergeon is the best, after that its swiss, french, indian...

[This message has been edited by GandalfPC (edited 10-02-2002).]

[lots of time]

What I do when removing hand is put the watch in a little bag and the hand will remain in the bag after removal... I have spent far too much time head down and butt up searching for parts.. The wife sees me on the floor doing that and says "So you are assuming the watchmakers position again are you?"

[J.S.Parker]

All great information! I just need one more recommendation: tweezers. There are about fifty different listings on S.LaRose. Which ones do I need for the hands? Also, the hands that I will change first are blued. I think that if I touch them with my fingers or tape that they may tarnish in the future. How should blued hands be handled?

Regards,

John

[Jon Hanson]

With tweezers!!!!!!!!

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[Jerry Treiman]

For most of my watch work I use a non-magnetic 3C tweezer. The non-mag are a little softer than steel and are less likely to scratch the watch parts. Barry mentioned how tight dial screws sometimes are -- this may also contribute to hairlines in the dial. So, when you put the dial back on make the screws just barely snug. (Also be sure the screws are sufficiently backed out to remove the dial without forcing it).

[jwdavis]

Interesting topic and timely for me. I just removed the hands and dial from a pocket watch for the first time yesterday. Perhaps through my inexperience and clumsiness, I could not get the puller to fit around and pull the hands.

I tried a different method shown in a repair video course I have been studying. I folded a piece of paper over a couple of times and snipped off a corner. I unfolded the paper and slipped the V between the hands and the dial. Then, using a couple of screwdrivers, I gently rocked the hands loose.

I didn't lose the hands or damage the crystal. Was I just lucky?

Jack Davis
nawcc #0155192

[Charles Medsker]

Jack, If you put pressure on the dial while using the screwdrivers, there is a good chance that you will damage the dial. We see lots of dials with some damage around the center and second hand holes. Best to use the hand-puller and the paper or acetate. I have put a little Liquid Wrench on the hands and let it set awhile, if there is any rust on the hands around the center, especially if there is any resistance while trying to take them off. I have broken the 4th wheel pivot while taking off a rusted second hand. These watches have been around longer than we have, so it won't hurt to take more time, use a little Liquid Wrench or WD-40 and let them set a couple hours longer.

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Charles Medsker
Indianapolis, IN
NAWCC #54809
Member Indiana Chapter #18

[GandalfPC]

Your hand puller may be the wrong type - one that is too large will make it tough to get under the hands... There are several different sizes, from small second hand pullers to large ones for pulling pinions - make sure you have the right size for the job (I don't bother with the second hand pullers, I use one puller for hour, minute, and second hands, and another puller for the pinion)

I also have a Bergeon 6016 hand puller for sticky situations - it looks like a small pen with two pins sticking out the front like tweezers. You slowly push it under the hands while rocking it slightly - works very well...

[This message has been edited by GandalfPC (edited 10-02-2002).]

[Jerry Treiman]

One more tip I forgot to mention. Remove the hour and minute hand one at a time. Don't take a shortcut and try to pull both together. The added friction from both hands is just that much more unnecessary pressure against the dial that can lead to damage.

[Steve Maddox]

Mr. Parker,

Much of the advice you've been given above is good, but some of it isn't. Indeed, you should use hand pullers to remove hands, and you shouldn't attempt to pull the hour and minute hands both at the same time for exactly the reasons Jerry stated above.

You should use tweezers for handling parts and moving them into position, but you certainly shouldn't try to use them for pressing hands back on! Staking tool punches can be used for that, but it's best to use "hand setting tools," which are specifically made for that purpose. Those look quite similar to staking tool punches or jewel pushers, but they have plastic tips that won't scratch or otherwise damage the finish of hands. Also, hands that are particularly difficult to press on, should have their holes enlarged enough that they require only relatively moderate pressure to secure.

For what it's worth, 95% of the hands I see on vintage pocket watches have serious scratches on them that almost certainly resulted from some #^$*% trying to press them back on with tweezers. Don't be a botcher -- if you're going to do something, learn how to do it right, and then do it that way every time!

By the way, there is a "Horological Tools" section of this Message Board, and questions such as yours about tools and repair practices are often discussed there by several very knowledgeable members, a few of which are professional watchmakers.

I hope this helps!

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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[Steve Maddox]

Perhaps some will find these at least moderately interesting:

For those who want a good, but VERY basic tool, this is it:
http://www.ofrei.com/images/ofrei-409.jpg

For those who want something a little nicer, this is it:
http://www.ofrei.com/images/fb412.jpg

For those who want something really nice, this is it:
http://www.ofrei.com/images/msa05015.jpg

And for those who want the #1, top of the line, absolute best available, this is it:
http://www.bergeon.ch/images/Pot6012.jpg

Finally, for those who want to learn more about the various types of hand setting and removing tools currently available (not antiques or vintage), here is an extremely convenient place to go: http://www.ofrei.com/page_209.html

SM

[Tom McIntyre]

Steve, my hand setting tool is a machined cup that holds the watch movement while supporting the enter arbor in the back. This prevents me from damaging the center jewels.

Waltham made a full set of them for all the watch models.

Do any of the tools shown do that?

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Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Steve Maddox]

Tom,

The Bergeon tools in the bottom picture above do have supports for the center wheel arbors, but of course, none of the other models shown do.

A separate tool that's designed to be used in conjunction with the other tools above, can be seen at the link povided at the bottom of my previous message. For those who didn't follow the link, here's a picture of that specific tool:
http://www.ofrei.com/images/fb415.jpg

I'm not sure if the design of this tool is anything like your Waltham tool, but it serves the same purpose.

For what it's worth, hands really shouldn't fit so tightly that there'd be risk of breaking or unseating a jewel from pressing them on. If the hand are that tight, they really need to be broached a little in order to fit correctly. A hand broaching vice is also shown at the link in the message above.

SM

[lots of time]

I would agree with Sam... With even my limited experience, I would never use wd-40 on a watch, anywhere. Also, I also agree that if the hands are so tight there is danger of damaging the center jewel, a few passes with a broach would cure that. I just use a punch from my staking set that fits nicely and have never had a problem.

[Tom McIntyre]

It's not clear that Waltham considered it a serious problem, but they did make a set of cups to fit all the models. When the watch is in the cup, it fits snugly and the support just touches the center arbor in the back. I will try to get scans of them and post them.

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Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Tom Huber]

Maybe I am old fashioned and don't have all that modern stuff that Steve so graciously showed, but I can still set hands and not damage anything. I was taught many years ago by two old school trained watchmakers that to set hands--place the hour hand onto the hour wheel and gently ease it down with the side of the tweezer tips. For the minute hand--put it in place on the cannon pinion and use the flat side of the butt end of the tweezers to set the hand in place. I have never had a problem and have set over 1000 hands in my lifetime. Nice to have all of the fancy tools, but a good set of tweezers, common sense and a little patience can go a long way. Tom