Hamilton 941 A. R. T. K.

[larrlarr]

A friend of mine just gave me several of his watches to list on ebay. One of them was a Hamilton 941 21J with the letters A. R. T. K on the mainspring bridge. My friend says it stands for American Railroad Time Keeper. I can't find anything on it in my books. Can anyone help??
Larry

[larrlarr]

A friend of mine just gave me several of his watches to list on ebay. One of them was a Hamilton 941 21J with the letters A. R. T. K on the mainspring bridge. My friend says it stands for American Railroad Time Keeper. I can't find anything on it in my books. Can anyone help??
Larry

[doug sinclair]

Larry,

The 941 was the hunter cased version of the open-faced Hamilton 940. The 940 was THE railroad watch of the era, and I am not certain that the hunter cased version would have been universally accepted for railroad use. My last resort reference for identifying American pocket watches is Ehrhardt & Meggers book American Pocket Watches, ID & Price Guide. I was unable to find it identified there. Having said that, watch someone come along that says your friend is correct! That's okay, I've been wrong before.

[Kent]

Larry:

Knowing when the watch was built would help in estimating the likelihood of its acceptance into railroad service. Can you tell us the serial number? Is it marked "941" on the barrel bridge (or anywhere else)? What is signed on the dial?

Kent

[Jon Hanson]

More importantly, are the markings factory?

[larrlarr]

The serial # on the watch is 181617. It is not a marked 941 but I looked it up and 181001 to 182000 is a model 941. I have all the books too and the engraving looks like Hamilton Factory. I can send a picture But I can't post one, Sorry. Just let me know where to send it. Also My email address is larr-larr@worldnet.att.net if anyone wants to email me about this watch.

Larry

[larrlarr]

I think I just found out how to post a picture of the watch.

[larrlarr]

To Kent

Hamilton is on the dial and you now can see the movement

[Jon Hanson]

Very wonderful and it is GT also!

[terry hall]

A benefit to NAWCC members is the Research Center of the NAWCC Library.

Members can request information on Hamilton watches below serial number 800,000. If you furnish the serial number, you can find out the date finished, date sold, and in some cases, to whom the watch was sold.... this 'may' lead to the meaning of the initials.

follow the link to the nawcc home page and click for the library and research center...

[Kent]

Larry:

According to the data in "Hamilton Hand-Written Serial Numbers No. 1 To 824,700, by Col. George E. Townsend," by Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 2000 (Still in print - see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)), most of the watches in the run 181001 - 182000 were finished and sold in 1902 - 1903. However, there is a specific note that serial number 181617 was marked "A.R.T.K." and sold to J.W. Forsinger, Chicago. This note includes the dates of 2-2-30 and 5-12-17. I have no idea how to interpret these dates. Perhaps Don Dahlberg can shed some light on the dates.

If actually finished and sold in 1902 - 1903, this hunting-case watch (even with a Roman dial) would have been accepted to enter time service on any number of railroads at that time and would have been grandfathered forward on a portion of them as time progressed.

Kent

P.S. Its a very nice watch!"

[larrlarr]

Kent, I think what you are saying is that this watch is a one of a kind. I told my friend and he said to go ahead and list it on ebay anyway.

Kent and all others, thank you for all the info about this watch.

Larry

[Jon Hanson]

Not nice, WONDERFUL! Please let us know when it will be up on fleabay!

Thanks.

[larrlarr]

I am going to try to list it tonight Sat. 10-9-4
with some other nice watches.

[Whit Joyner]

The 941 Gold Trimmed watches are indeed beautiful. I was recently lucky enough to get #259028.

If mine is typical, then on this one (#181617), the adjustment spring and the Fast-Slow scale should be gold plated also, and the escape pinion jewel mount should look like its neighbors.

(Just adding these bits for the Hamilton crowd.)

Whit Joyner
The Old Tar Heel

[Kent]

Hi Whit:

Our data base shows that serial number 259026 was a private label movement, signed "Thomas Fitzgerald." Is your 259028 a private label movement (and if so, how is it signed?), or is signed "Hamilton Watch Co."?

Kent

[Whit Joyner]

Yes, my movement (259028) is engraved Thomas Fitzgerald. The dial says Hamilton Watch Co.

Thanks for what you add. What else do the records have on these watches, or on Fitzgerald himself?

Who has the 026, if it's ok to ask?

Whit

[Kent]

Whit:

*sigh* I should have mentioned this the first time, 259026 is noted as having gold-on-nickel damaskeening that Ed and I refer to as tu-tone - does 259028?

259026 was offered for sale by a mail-order dealer almost a year ago - he might still have it, but not likely. Those who are interested in contacting the dealer may obtain details from me via email (To send me an email, click on my name at the upper left of this posting. Choose "View Kent's Public Profile." That will open a page where you will find my email link.).

The following movements (including yours) are listed in our data base as being signed "Thomas Fitzgerald"

937 - 231,526
936 - 236,729
936 - 244,438
941 - 259,028
940 - 268,403
940 - 268,602
940 - 268,810
992 - 398,611

"Railroad Watch Inspectors," Greg Frauenhoff, Sedalia, CO, 2000 (available at this Link To Greg’s Books (http://hometown.aol.com/gfrauen10/gfrauen10.html)) lists Fitzgerald Jewelry, Clinton, IL as a railroad watch inspector's firm for the ICG (Illinois Central Gulf), in 1973. Its possible that there's a connection, but not likely. One would have to check the business records in Clinton, IL to see if the firm, or a family predecessor, was in business when those watches were built. The good news is that the watches ought to be listed in the Hamilton Production Ledgers at the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm). That would revel the distributor, or possibly the retailer, to whom the watches were sold.

Unfortunately, Thomas Fitzgerald is a common enough name to made a google search difficult.

Kent

I've just now (3:25 PM, 12-Oct-04) learned that serial number 259026 is really 259028 and that the dealer had typed the number incorrectly on his mail-order list. Not only that, but it does not have gold-on-nickel damaskeening, just gilt trim. The list of "Thomas Fitzgerald" signed watches above has been corrected. - Kent

[Whit Joyner]

Kent, by the terms/definitions we have been using on the MB, my 941 (#259028) is not a two-tone watch. The top plate has gold in the incised markings (as do my 940 and my 946), but to that, Hamilton added gold plating on all the screw heads and all the regulator parts (spring, spring screw, index arm, and index scale).

Judging from mine, therefore, I think the #181617 has had some parts changed, unless Hamilton scholars should find that the company might have done some "partial" gold trim watches.

If any more can be gleaned about this matter, I'll be glad to read of it on the MB. Thanks for your efforts.

Whit


Hoping to learn more,
Whit

[larrlarr]

Whit, It looks like the regulator spring was replaced at one time in the past. There is a little Boo boo on the gold screw that looks like it was done by a screw driver. The fast slow scale was never touched. After looking at it this close I am tempted to take it apart and clean it.

Larry