Julius Assmann

Recntly purchased a Julius Assmann PW and am having difficulty dating it, finding out information on the maker and determining the quality of the movement. The serial number is #20252. The dial is marked J-Assmann Glashutte, I/Sachsen. The case is marked J. Assmann Glashutte 0.585 with the identical serial #20252. I have been to a few other watch discussion groups and am getting few but slightly mixed reactions on the quality of the Assmann movements. One gentleman referred me to your group as the experts in this area. Any information at all would be appreciated as I know very little about this subject but am becoming VERY interested! Have several photos if that would help.

Recntly purchased a Julius Assmann PW and am having difficulty dating it, finding out information on the maker and determining the quality of the movement. The serial number is #20252. The dial is marked J-Assmann Glashutte, I/Sachsen. The case is marked J. Assmann Glashutte 0.585 with the identical serial #20252. I have been to a few other watch discussion groups and am getting few but slightly mixed reactions on the quality of the Assmann movements. One gentleman referred me to your group as the experts in this area. Any information at all would be appreciated as I know very little about this subject but am becoming VERY interested! Have several photos if that would help.

[Tom McIntyre]

Assman was one of the founders of the Glasshutte school of watchmaking. His early watches look very much like the work of Lange which is being discussed in this other thread old ref::Lange Thread.

Assman was also the maker of the precision watches for the early Gruen Watch Co. A good reference for Gruen is Paul Schliessel's site www.pixelp.com/Gruen (http://www.pixelp.com/Gruen) which seems to be off-line at this moment. Another is the talk on Gruen that Jack Goldberg presented in New Orleans two years ago. Gruen Talk (http://www.pockethorology.org/GoldbergGruen/index.htm)

This watch from my collection is typical of the watches Assman made for Gruen. You can click on the picture to enlarge it.

http://www.awco.org/European/Gruen/AssmanBig/movement_small.jpg (http://www.awco.org/European/Gruen/AssmanBig/movement.jpg)

If you purchased the watch that was recently for sale on eBay, it appears to be rather later production in the Swiss style rather than the Glasshutte style. A similar, but different, example was offered for sale at the Chapter 8 meeting in Worcester Mass last November.

If you will post your pictures, we can probably tell you quite a bit more about your watch.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[This message was edited by Tom McIntyre on February 01, 2003 at 14:43.]

[rrwatch]

Tom,
Is the Assman Gruen you displayed an 18 or a 20 jewel movement?

Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688

Had to figure out how to post my image but this site had great tutorial and only took me an hour to figure it out! Here goes...photos of newly acquired Assmann watch...

http://members.cox.net/jaws70/252Assmaov04.jpeg
http://members.cox.net/jaws70/252Assmaov06.jpeg
http://members.cox.net/jaws70/252Assmaov08.jpeg

[Jeff Hess]

Looks like one of those "Alpina style" Swiss watches for the German market.


Jeff Hess

JPH

[Dr. Jon]

YOur Assman is defintely a Swiss movement. It looks like a very fine one but it is definitely Swiss.

If you are going to specialize in Assmann watches you learn what typical one look like and how to distinguish the grades made by teh company.

The watch Tom posted was only made for Gruen and is as atypical as the one you have. Tom's watch differes from Assman in primarily in that it is half palte rather than a full plate or 3/4 plate version. ALso Assmans tended to be gilt rather than nickel.

Assman like all 19th C Glasshutte watches are very pricey so you should do more study.

Your serial number is lower than Tom's, teh Gruen seris is in teh 60,000 's and were made in the 1880's.

The serial number anbd the lack of jeweling in the center suggest about 1870 or possibly earlier.

The 585 means 14k gold. I am on shakey ground here but I beleive 14k is almost always for the American market. This would also apply the double sunk dial. See what it says on the regulatort. IF is sawys Fast and SLow or F &S it was fro teh US market.

BTW you have a very very fine watch, just a bit unusual fo r that maker.

Dr. Jon

Very interesting Dr. Jon. I was told by the gentleman I purchased it from that it was "probably" from 1910-1920 but that he wasn't sure. Everything I have found out so far from the watch groups and research on the Assmann company imply that it was produced quite a bit earlier then that. I will check out the regulator when I get it back from the watch repair shop. Why 14k for the American market? What would European market watches have used? I have this awful feeling I could become a collector....This is fun!

BTW when you say it is a swiss movement does that imply "made in the Swiss design" or as in made by the Swiss and finished out by Assmann? Truly a newbie here!

[Tom McIntyre]

None of us know for certain without records from the factory. However, it is highly likely that the Assman company ordered the watch from a Swiss manufacturer complete as you see it.

It is unusual to find 14K watch cases on European watches. 18K is the standard gold case. When we see a 14K original case on a Swiss or German watch, we believe it was intended for the US market.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Douglas Romero]

WOLF111,

I have the similar J. Assmann watch that Tom was referring to. It is essentially the same as yours, but OF and pinset and not hunting. It is very close to being in unused condition. So that's nice in any event. Mine is serial #17097, and is supposed to be circa 1880. From that and other information I have read, I suspect yours to be around 1900.

The early 3/4 plate type were usually 20 jewels and had diamond endstones with screwdown jewel settings. I believe these were referred to as 1st quality. Also I think these were also mostly nickel movements.

In the bridge model you have (and mine), 15 jewels was standard. I'm told the higher grade versions came with micro regulators and gold timing screws.
Think yours qualifies for that also. So maybe it means it's 2nd quality?

Whether yours is Swiss or German made, and if done primarily for American market, I don't know. My guess is Swiss made even though these are pictured as having staight line Glashutte lever escapements.

So Wolf, Email me and give your name and address, and I'll send you some info and pictured descriptions I have on J. Assmann. Most of it is in German from an article by Kurt Herkner. It does not really help me discern if Swiss made, althogh I can find no language that appears in it to a Swiss reference. Wish I had a scanner, or I'd scan the info for all to see.

I'll take pix of my watch later if anyone interested.

Doug Romero

Thanks Doug, I didn't see your email listed so will give you mine here. jaws70@cox.net. Would be very interested in getting the material. Please email me and I will send you my address.

[pwrudy]

Dear Wolf,
your watch is most certainly a so-called Assmann-Alpina, made after 1910 (I would guess just before WW I). There are some people around in Germany who claim to have number lists of Assmann but it is very hard to get hold of those (they are treated as TOP-secret).
Julius Assmann was born 2 nd Oct 1827 in Stettin, where he was appenticed watchmaker. He helped Adolf Lange to build up the watch industry in Glashütte, near Dresden and entered the scene in about 1850 as an assistant to A. Lange. He established his own business in 1852 and in 1865, he married Marie, Lange's oldest daughter (A.'s 2nd marriage), so both families became related. Gerrit Nijssen has written an excellent book 'F.A. Lange & Glashütte (Boston 1978)' where he also explains the relationship of Paul Assmann to the Gruen family. It came from this link that Assmann made watches for Gruen with an extra numbering sequence (62.000 to 69.000). Your watch is not from this batch so you cannot use these numbers to determine the age of your watch.
In the early 1900s, there was a cry for cheaper yet still reliable and prestigious watches, so that Assmann started a 'new' cheaper model using the 'raw' movements (they were actually finished, but not complete) of the swiss company Alpina (Union horlogère), Bienne. Assmann added the Galshütte balance and his own 'swiss style' escapement with the typical moustache anchor that you find in the Gruen-Assmann watches (Gr-Ass: in gold, yours is made of steel). The balance brigde, regulator and hairspring, also were made in Glashütte.(Your haispring stud seems to be replaced, if I am not mistaken)
His best quality watches were entirely produced in Glashütte, had 20 jewels and the typical 3/4 plate model. You can often find these movements made for the southern american market with nickel plates, damaskeened and sporting a gold train (Lange never did that!), but that was in the 1870s/1880s.
So, your watch is sold in Germany, cased in an Assmann 14k case (they used 18k only for their 1st quality), probably custom made for them in Switzerland (please check if you can find the little squirrel for swiss 14k stamped inside the case back). The movement, however, has mostly swiss and some german components.
These watches are, however, genuine Assmann products but not as highly regarded in Germany as the Glashütte-Assmann models.
Have fun with your watch!
Rudolf

[Tom McIntyre]

Rudy,

The Gruen literature refers to the escapement as the Grossman escapement. Does that match with your information?

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[pwrudy]

Dear Tom,
the most learned and interesting article on Carl Moritz Großmann is to be found in Klassik Uhren, 6/2001, pp. 10-79. My friend B. Schaarschmidt on whose behalf I asked for information about early A.Lange movements, also contributed to this article. I can send a photocopy to you if you are interested. It's written in German, of course. :frown:
Referring to the 'Großmann-Anker', I recall to have heard this term for the moustache-lever as used by Gruen-Assmann. As far as I could see it from the literature, this form was never used by Goßmann himself in his watches (he later used the 'Lange or Glashütte-Goldankergang', he also experimented with the english lever, the cylinder and the pin-lever escapement earlier). The term 'Großmann-Anker' could derive from Großmann's book 'The detached lever escapement' (1866) which won the 1. prize of 30 Gn., awarded by the BHI. In this essay(188 pages), Großmann outlines the principles for a perfect lever escapement, so that lateron the Assmann factory might have referred to their (swiss) moustache lever as a theoretically perfect (poised) 'Großmann-Anker'. It differed from the swiss models (e.g. used by Patek) in two respects: 1. was made of gold (12 k, hammered) 2. the impulse jewel was fixed underneath the balance arm and not on a roller.
I hope that helps you a bit to clarify this term.

[Dr. Jon]

Just to add my thanks to to pwrudy. One thing that has made me think my initial dating might be wrong was the jeweling style. I'd like to see teh article and I can almost read German so if you send it to Tom, I can help him if he needs it.

Dr. Jon

[Tom McIntyre]

Rudy,

Gruen did not treat it as just a naming convention following Grossman's prize essay. They actually advertized their watch as having an escapement designed by Grossman. Here is a piece of their literature that Jack Goldberg showed in New Orleans a couple of years ago. Actually, in reading the text, they do not actually claim that Grossman designed it. This copy is not really good. I will try to get Jack to make a better scan.

http://www.pockethorology.org/GoldbergGruen/Slide_107_small.JPG (http://www.pockethorology.org/GoldbergGruen/Slide_107.JPG).

I would love to see the German article on Grossman. I can do a halfway decent job of reading technical German in chemistry, biology and horology. :wink: My German is better if there are pictures. :biggrin:

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Dr. Jon]

More on Alpina

It seems that the use of this ebauche in a Glasshutte watch was more than jsut a financial choice. Check out this web site

http://www.alpina-watches.com/company/history.htm

Seems thay had an operaion in Glasshutte and it did enough business that Lange sued them, unsuccessfully.

Dr. Jon

[pwrudy]

Dear Tom and Dr. Jon,
I will be delighted to send the article to Tom. Does he need a colour copy? This would be a rather costly thing. But thanks so much for the addition on the Gruen-Assmann escapement. I could not find any more on this subject in the article.
Dr. Jon: Of course, you are right, I have forgotton to mention the Präcisionsuhren-Fabrik Alpina, Glashütte. It was like the Nomos-Uhren an attempt to draw on the excellent reputation of the Glashütte watches, using mostly swiss ebauches which underwent some finishing and alteration at Glashütte. The Lange brothers (successors to A. Lange) did not like it, of course, because these watches had the outward appearance of Glashütte watches and were considerably cheaper.
They still not regarded as true Glashütte watches by many collectors in Germany.

[Tom McIntyre]

After reading the Alpina history, it is still not clear to me how the Grossman name appears on the Alpina Glasshutte watches. Did the Grossman house buy the movements and sign them, or was the name unprotected and used by Alpina for commercial advantage?

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Dr. Jon]

pwrudy

Thansk again for your information and to WOlf 111 who is either delighted or buried in information!!

I wonder what German collectors think of the Gruen Assmann watches? As far as I can tell they have a distict Glasshutte character but are of a pattern I have not seen since in an Assmann watch.

From what I can tell they are somewhat under appreciated in the US What I find interesting is that the AMerican railroad standards of about 1880 seem deliberately written to exclude them particularly in regard to requiring steel escape wheels.

Dr. Jon

[pwrudy]

Tom,
a minor correction: the GROSSMANN name never appeared on Alpina watches. Carl Moritz Großmann died 23rd Jan 1885 (the company was closed after his death), Alpina started in Glashütte never before that date (the company history mentions 1909). Thus, you must mean the Assmann company.
From 1886 until 1911, Paul Assmann was director. He went to Le Locle to learn watchmaking, so he was very well acquainted with the swiss methods, calibers and some companies.
He was open for new developments outside the Glashütte traditions (cf. the Gruen-Assmann cooperation which resulted in a split plate model with our famous Grossmann-Ankergang).
The company name J. Assmann, Glashütte i/S was registered and thus protected (trade mark: two hammers crossed). Alpina could neither have used his name nor trade mark. They just used the name 'Glashütte' as a magical means to attract German customers (like' Mercedes') who could almost feel the prestigious touch of wealth when they carried a 'Glashütte' watch.

I can not, however tell you exactly if Paul Assmann or his successor Georg Heinrich (director from 1911-1917) approached Alpina or vice versa they offered him a good deal using their movements. As far as I know, they never used the 'Großmann-Ankergang' (i.e. the gold moustache lever) for their Alpina-Glashütte watches.
Therfore, it is clearly the first alternative you have indicated.

[pwrudy]

Dear Dr. Jon,
sorry to post another one (I've got too much time this evening :cool:), just on that Gruen-Assmann-topic.
Oh, I can tell you, it#s very hard to get these original Gruen-Assmann watches in Germany. They are regarded as true Assmann (Glashütte) products, quite desirable, because they are mostly first quality: Gold train, nickel plates and the gold escapement - that's what we like!
Of course, I am not entitled to tell you any value, but it's quite high up (not as high as an original cased Lange, of course). I would LOVE to own one!!! :smile: :smile: :smile:
They are a model which was reserved for Gruen exclusively and thus you cannot find them in Assmann cases (with the Assmann trade mark inside). So sometimes, German collectors who are not that knowledgeable despise them, because they think they have been recased.
THAT's MY CHANCE!!!! (Don't tell anyone here in good old Germany... :biggrin:)

[Kent]

Dr. Jon:

Which railroad standards are you referring to from the 1880's that require steel escape wheels? In a brief look through my files, the earliest requirement I can find is Ball's 1906 PRR rules. There were some high grade Seth Thomas model 2 and 3 grades that have brass escape wheels.

When an effort was made to exclude European watches, the U.S. rules seem to have been more specific, using such phrases as
Big Four - The Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway Co.
Peoria & Eastern Railway Co.
Time Inspection Service Circular
Indianapolis, Dec. 15, 1897

8. The minimum standard of excellence for "old watches" now in service shall be of a grade equal to what are known among American watches as the fifteen jewel patent regulator adjusted, and the must be in condition to keep time within thirty seconds per week.

Approved:
J.A. Barnard, Gen’l Manager P. & E. R’y Co.
J.Q. Van Winkle, Gen’l Superintendent C.C.C.&St.L R’y CO.
Webb C. Ball, Chief Inspector of Watches
[HR][HR]

Still, it's not clear to me that this excludes non-American watches. I suppose that it depends upon the definition of "... be of a grade equal to ..."

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[Dr. Jon]

Kent

Of course you are right. As one of my guiding books says "The rebuke of the wise is better than the laughter of fools".

I had the date wrong but I was referring to your excellent piece on the 1906-1908 rules.

I retain my right to speculate that the Gruen Assman watches may have been the target of thsi legislation.

For Hampton and others to go from brass to steel would have been an inconvenience which did not bother them. For Glasshutte to do this would have been to absorb an insult, perhaps less costly but more difficult.

Of course having the law codified in 1908 makes the connection much weaker, but perhaps it was in the community for some time before being codified.

This would not have excluded the Swiss and, in fact, in the end, they did take over the market. HOwever in 1890 to 1900 a well priced German watch would have been a serious threat as they had a reputation for high quality which Swiss watches did not enjoy universally.

Thanks for you correction and your really great articles.

Dr. Jon

[Kent]

Dr. Jon:

Shucks! I was hoping that you had some copies of rules that I hadn't been aware of. Here's some more on the subject.

The following is from The Jewelers’ Circular - Weekly and Horological Review, February 28, 1900, pp. 33-4 (Note - The D., L. & W. is the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western):


Letters To The Editor
WATCHES OF D., L. & W. RAILROAD EMPLOYES
Cincinnati, O. Feb. 12
Editior The Jewelers’ Circular - Weekly:
In your Consolidation number, page 48, you mention the D., L. & W. inspection rules. We wish to kinkly inform you there is a very grave error in where you state "or any standard Swiss movement of 22 jewels or more will be acceptable to the company." You no doubt have been misinformed, and I herewith give you the exact words of letter written in answer to an inquiry by us of J. W. Forsinger, the chief inspector. Would like very much to have you state the matter correctly in your next issue in justice to the various Swiss watch interests and also set the matter before the public correctly, for we have had quite a few inquiries from dealers in view of it. With greetings we remain your truly,
D. Gruen & Sons.

Mr. Forsinger’s letter enclosed is reprinted below:

Chicago, Ill, Feb. 7, 1900

Messrs. D. Gruen & Sons, Cincinnati, O.:
Dear Sirs:-I am unable to fathom where you saw that only 22 jewels Swiss watches would pass. Our book of instructions mentions that the highest grades of Swiss will pass on any road and it is understood that all Swiss movements of the higher qualities will pass. Both your grades which I have in stock will pass on any road that I have, provided no dealer’s name is specially engraved on it. I have no copy of the rules you mention at present, but will gladly furnish any further information you may desire.
Yours truly,
(Signed): J. W. Forsinger[HR][HR]

Its believed that Gruen was importing watches from Assmann of Dresden until 1904 when they switched over to Swiss watches. Either everybody just lumped Dresden production in with the Swiss, or Gruen had started moving production to Switzerland earlier than previously thought - and the watches Forsinger referred to may have been the Swiss-Gruen grades No. 52 and 56.

Would anybody else care to speculate upon what watches Gruen and Forsinger were talking about in the letters? Or, can someone add facts regarding when D. Gruen & Sons switched production from Assmann to the Swiss?

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[Tom McIntyre]

Rudy,

I meant to say Assman in reference to the starting post of this topic. As one ages the wiring sometimes gets crossed. :redface:

The example watch of an Alpina signed J. Assman is what I was trying to clarify. Since the Assman name was protected, it would have had to be used by license or the watches purchased as custom labeled by Assman from Alpina. It would seem unlikely that Assman would have done further work on them since they were effectively coming from "across the street." However, that is not impossible. Ball certainly did similar things with Hamilton watches even though Ball was on the Board of Directors at Hamilton.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[pwrudy]

Dear Tom,
you are right. Both possibilties could be thinkable. German collectors, as far as I have heard them saying, assume (!) that Assmann finished the watches in his own shop or gave it for finishing to the Glashütte cottage industry (as probably Alpina did with their watches coming from Switzerland, marketed 'Alpina Glashütte'), the balance suppliers (e.g. Richard Gläser), engravers etc.
The cases are stamped with the Assmann sign, they have the same style engraving on the plates as the genuine Assmann house products, the hands and dials are exactly indentical to the Assm.-Glashütte watches, so people have a good reason to think that the Assmann Watch Co. purchased just the semi-finished movements from Alpina and did the rest themselves or with the help of their regular suppliers.
It still remains a great mystery which components of the famous Glashütte watches were really made entirely at this little town in Saxony. This applies to Assmann as well as Lange and the rest. We know that even Lange used Swiss parts quite a lot (hairsprings, some cases and many minute repeater ebauches).

[Dr. Jon]

I think Assmann or Alpina must ahve done significant work on the watches in Glasshutte. I think this because Alpina won the lawsuit when Lange tried to get them enjoined from selling watches under the Glasshutte name. Usually courts do not ruel in favor of a foreign operation unless it is providing significant employment.

This still does not say what they did in Glasshutte but it had to be significant.

I would imagine that every part Lange bought from Switzerland would be in the court depositions, as would be what Alpina did in Glasshutte.

This is speculation and I have no knowledge of how German courts worked in Saxony at this time and what records survived a rather turbulent period. It might make an intersting article.

Dr. Jon

[pwrudy]

Dr Jon,
I would not be suprised if someone comes up with the lawsuit extract which are (as far as I know) still existing (at least some authors refer to them).
Lange reported Großmann to the ministery of commerce, Kingdom of Saxony in 1879 to be using swiss material in his watches (the officials did not take action because Großmann never received Government subsidies as did Lange); you can see from this early date that the sons of Adolf Lange, Richard and Emil, who took over after Langes death in 1876, were quite anxious to keep their business thriving and to watch the competing firms still existant (Schneider, Assmann, Großmann) or quickly emerging after the boom of the early 1890s (Kasiske, Gläser, Union, Akt.-Ges.).
Dürrstein, who was Lange's wholesaler in the 1880s, marketed 'Union Glocke' watches, which were quite similar in appearance to the Glashütte products, but swiss made. This was one reason he came into trouble with Lange, so that they dissolved their partnership and Dürrstein opened his own company at Glashütte in 1892 (Union Glashütte with a Temple trademark).
Lange sued Alpina (a year after they were established in Glash. 1912), Lange sued Nomos (a year after their foundation in 1909) - I think no matter, how big their real output was. They wanted (that's what they claimed at least) to foster and defend the reputation of the excellency of Glashütte watches in the world.
Therefore, I would slightly disagree in saying what Alpina did in Glashütte had to have been neccesarily significant. They doubtlessly were are large company with a huge capacity (in Switzerland) but I do not think that they sold a lot of these watches signed 'Präcisions-Uhrenfarbrik Alpina Glashütte/S.' to the German market. As a watch collector, you see a Lange repeater more often than one of those watches, even when you look for them at fleamarkets. The big 'seller' with plenty of examples were the 'Systeme Glashütte' watches, entirely made in Switzerland by various companies, with a very Glashütte-like plate design.
On the other hand, I agree, Lange felt threatened because Alpina, Nomos & Co could become significant and dangerous and wanted to keep them down as much as possible. Remember: Lange never clearly won a lawsuit against any of these firms, no matter of size. The best what they achieved was a settlement.

[Dr. Jon]

Thanks again for a great reply.

I ohave worked for companies that also never won a law suit, usually due to poor legal work. I have limited knowledge of German Courts especially at the turn of the century. However I heard once that a US corporate executive could face arrest in Germany for failure to honor a contract with a German worker.

Thus it seems plausible that for a foreign new comer to prevail against an established business owned by a native they would have to demonstrate some benefit. In the US this is not often as important as who hires the most established and connect law firm and has been so for a long time.

Lacking details of the suit I think your view is as reasonable as mine.

Dr. Jon