Parting out watches on Ebay ?

[Brad Maisto]

Has any one else noticed a person on Ebay, "******" parting out good pocket watches, separating the dials from the movements and also the cases being sold separately? Could these be stolen items? One veritas movement, Ebay #**********, and this seller also has a veritas dial and several cases for auction !

edited to remove reference to seller and auction. tc

[Brad Maisto]

Has any one else noticed a person on Ebay, "******" parting out good pocket watches, separating the dials from the movements and also the cases being sold separately? Could these be stolen items? One veritas movement, Ebay #**********, and this seller also has a veritas dial and several cases for auction !

edited to remove reference to seller and auction. tc

[Robert M.]

Hi Brad:
If you would like to view your topic in a another discussion arena flip on the #185 Horological Website.The Pitfalls and also the Pocketwatch forums have some real heated discussions pertaining to the parting out of pocketwatches.Take a peek at it,I think you'll enjoy reading them.
Sincerely,Bob F.

[Jerry Treiman]

Most watch collectors have been outraged by the practice of parting out complete original watches. Usually these are not stolen, but the sellers, with little regard for the preservation of these timepieces, have found they can realize more profit by doing this. In the process, historical information about the original configuration of these watches is lost. There is little we can do about this except not support such sales with our participation. Unfortunately, there are always buyers for the pieces. Some collectors have valiantly tried to buy the pieces so they can be re-united, only to be outbid on one critical piece. It is a real shame this is happening and we can only hope the perpetrators do not get their hands on any important watches.

[Fred Hansen]

The sad fact is that attempts to reunite and "save" split apart watches by bidding for the separate pieces only contribute to the cycle of more watches being broken down since these bids add to the seller's profit margin.

The part that I don't understand is the prices parts sometimes bring on eBay. Often times these are from quite common watches and the individual components will have condition issues, but still bring a strong price relative to a nice correct original watch. Sometimes I see the prices realized on these things and just have to wonder what the bidders are thinking??? :confused:

Fred

[Tom Chaudoir]

Hi Folks,

Please do not accuse an ebay seller of shady activity here. We have been burned by this in the past. I understand why you might want to point to the bad guys, but this is not the place for it. Sorry.

Regards,

[John F]

Tom - I read the post before it was edited, and I'm not sure why it's now being characterized as "accus[ing] an ebay seller of shady activity" or "point[ing] out bad guys." There was nothing that said that such-and-such seller was being a jerk (or worse) for doing so-and-so. It was a question about whether a particular selling practice was a way to shield stolen watches - an open-ended question. There was no accusation at all.

We have a forum here that's devoted to notices of stolen watches, so the subject of stolen watches clearly cannot be out of bounds on the message board. The question was about whether a certain practice might or might not be a way to disguise that a watch might be stolen or not, so that certainly can't be off-limits.

The informative and educational responses by Jerry and Fred were very instructive, and went to the heart of the importance of the study, history and preservation of original watches. Why cut that disucssion off? Isn't that what we're all about?

[terry hall]

Just to ease Brad's mind.......

Many of these watches in this round of saleswere purchased in Orlando at the Mid Winter Regional.

I remember seeing many of them for sale there by different sellers.

So the evidence is pretty incriminating that these are being parted out in an attempt at profit.

[mikeh]

I didn't see Brad's original post before it was moderated but unless some other comments were removed, I see no accusations. Just questions that we should all be asking.

What is wrong with pointing to an auction(s) and asking "is this acceptable to those who care about horology?".

[Tom Chaudoir]

Hi guys,

A while back we had a seller come after the NAWCC with legal action. Our attorney had to get involved, and that's always a red flag to HQ. I was told in no uncertain terms not to let anything like that happen again. I can't read every posting, but am doing the best I can.

I sympathise with you, but need to keep our rear end covered. The message board must not expose the association to legal action. Sorry.

Regards,

[IMHO]

Tom C.'s note is an example of the improper management of this MB.

1. Who cried the sky was falling?

2. What was the outcome of the non-issue?

3. Is there a posted disclaimer disavowing culbability on the part of the NAWCC for messages left on this forum?

4. Why does every other MB in the world NOT suffer from the REAL (not imagined) threat of lawsuits as a result of any message someone might post there, but the NAWCC MB does?

Simple answer: nonqualified management.

[Harvey Mintz]

Now, come on guys - give us a break here!

If you want to discuss this topic without any problems, all you have to do is discuss the topic without mentioning any names. If you mention a name, you may expose the NAWCC to legal action, and even if no action is actually filed, the NAWCC may have to pay out money to lawyers negotiating with the person named.

If you don't name anyone specifically, but discuss the activity, no one can file a lawsuit against us, and we don't have to worry about spending the money on lawyers. Why insist on being able to name individuals when the discussion of the abstract activity is sufficient to clue everyone into what's happening? And why make an accusation of bad management when all someone is doing is protecting the organization from the possibility of a legal problem?

Anyone who's ever dealt with lawyers knows that they see all kinds of possibilities for problems, and that they want you to do all manner of things that seem silly to normal people in order to avoid problems. But these are people who have studied and engaged in the practice of law, and they probably know better than the rest of us what activities can be dangerous (or, at least they should).

Why is it that some members insist on their right to say anything they want at all times no matter what the consequences might be to other people and to the organization?

[IMHO]

Well Harvey, since you've asked, here's a case study based on actual events ....

A member of an org writes the Pres of the organization with totally false allegations of racism, conspiracy, etc., against other members and threatens a lawsuit against the org.

The org's MB admin uses this nonsense to place a public notice falsely stating that the wrongly named individuals have caused legal proceedings against the org and have casued the org to fail.

No proof or legal standing is provided or determined, yet the wrongly named individuals are publicly humiliated and censored by the org.

If anything, the person who brings the false accusations in order to harm members standing in the org, and the MB admin public providing statements on behalf of the org stating false information would subject the org to legal proceedings, NOT the other way around.

This is the sort of thing that raises the hair on my neck, and it continues.

How does this not quite hypothetical situation make you feel about the facts of how we're now being managed by similar shoot from the hip, make em up as you go, rhetoric and policies that only serve narrow purposes to either protect or discredit individuals?

Personally, it makes me think 'chicken little' is crying wolf again.

[Harvey Mintz]

Dave -

While I can guess at the situation you outline, I don't see any actual parrallels to what I was talking about.

In the situation you describe, a false accusation was made, and the MB admin came down on th side of the accuser without any investigation.

In the discussion of this topic, we're faced with the possibility that accusations made on this MB (without any actual proof being offered) might be used against the organization.

What part of don't use people's names if you want to avoid legal proceedings didn't you understand?

[Jerry Treiman]

The past four posts (and this one) have nothing to do with the topic of parting out watches, or anything horological and probably should be deleted or moved to a more appropriate forum. Frankly, I am getting tired of the open disdain from a few people towards the management of this board. I feel Tom and our forum moderators are doing a good job trying to keep this board on focus and of interest to the public we are trying to attract and engage. Can this post please be the last off-topic post? (not likely :rolleyes:).

[IMHO]

Harvey:

I understood your post. The point I was making is that non-issues are consistently raised to issues due to lack of ability and management.

Jerry:

I've no problem with moving the post, but I'll continue to comment on the management of this board for as long as I believe it's being mismanaged. The hope is that we'll eventually have a reasonably professionally run and managed board that all can enjoy.

btw - Where should the discussion of management of this MB be moved? The 149 private section? But what does this have to do with 149 and how would non-149 members participate? It continues ...
Dave

[Marine]

Certainly personal dialog can be persued in a private forum. Let's take the high road, and discuss horology specific matters. That's what I paid for in dues.

[Marine]

Comment about mis-management: I applaud the moderator for acknowledgement of free speech. In some instances tolerance beyond that.

[Tom Chaudoir]

Hi Dave,

If you have complaints about my performance, please feel free to take them to the Executive Director. Her email address and phone number can be found here. (http://www.nawcc.org/headquarters/staff.htm)

After your last complaint, I said that I would provide that link for the next person who complained.

You said
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The hope is that we'll eventually have a reasonably professionally run and managed board that all can enjoy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not a professional administrator. The moderators and I work for free. We do our best with what we have, and it's not an easy act to balance. The whole thing is powered by donations. Your dues are not tapped. The message board is the most powerful draw for new membership, and the members don't even have to pay for it. That seems like a pretty good deal.

I'll post that link again for you next time. Can we get back to horology now?

Regards,

[Lindell V. Riddle]

Once again I am saddened to see an NAWCC Member going after the administration of this message board in public view. In private it's bad enough, but ask yourselves, who would read this topic and want to join such a mean-spirited organization? Crude language, lack of respect for authority and angry accusations have no proper place here.

Two years ago then NAWCC President Doug Cowan addressed this situation in the February 2003 NAWCC Bulletin.

Please carefully read his words as they appear below...

_____________________________________________


NAWCC Member Use of the Internet

Our website, with its Message Board, is our most visible window to the public. It also contains links to many other websites, including those of our members, chapters, and other venues, such as the Member's Forum. We receive about two million "hits" each month on the site, including both members and the public.

The way we present ourselves on our own venue shows the world what kind of people and what kind of organization we are. We are horologists, collectors, and friends. We stand for respect and good behavior in our personal relationships and that is what our internet site should reflect.

Unfortunately, there have been a number of times when some site users have damaged that reflection. Unacceptable language and behavior has appeared on our internet venues.

As a result, the monitors of the Message Board are developing new and more aggressive minimum standards of behavior and language, and these will be enforced. If unacceptable use of our site persists, messages will be deleted and links from our website will be removed. We will not give the world the impression that our Association condones behavior that is harmful to others.

Respectfully,

Doug Cowan
NAWCC President


NAWCC Bulletin February 2003
Page 2, right hand column

_____________________________________________


I posted these words a few months earlier on June 28th 2002 in this very forum...


"I have often cautioned others on this message board saying, 'The world is watching every word you post. For many of our invited guests looking in from around the world, this may be the only view they ever have of the NAWCC. I believe we must at all times realize that the reputation not only of this organization but of all of us individually rises or falls whenever we speak through this board, and whether it rises or falls depends on what we say and how we say it'.

I view our message board with pride, and I participate with pride, honor and enthusiasm. I want it to continue, to expand and to always be a place where anyone can come with a horological question or observation and know they will be treated with respect, consideration and dignity. We have uplifted our passionate collecting and enjoyment of clocks and watches, and we have opened our message board for all the world to see and participate. We are the members of The National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors and we have a lot to be proud of!

This open-to-the-world Message Board shines like a beacon for all the world to see who we are and what we stand for and it says to one and all...'come right on in and converse with us. If you have a question we'll try to answer it...if you need help we'll try to give it'."

[I]
Like Tom Chaudoir, I too am an unpaid administrator. My time is spent helping run the Internet Horology Chapter 185 and I am a proud supporting member of nine NAWCC Chapters. The kind of crude conduct the world can see here tonight would never be tolerated at any land-based NAWCC Meeting, and in my view it should no longer be tolerated here on this, the NAWCC Message Board.

I avidly collect clocks, pocket and wrist watches as well as everything associated with them. Like most of you who are reading these words I love the NAWCC and like most of you I am deeply offended by the crude comments of a very few disrespectful members. Such ones shout "freedom of speech" but they forget that with freedom comes responsibility. We are brothers and sisters in horology, and we should be demonstrating respect for each other. So I'll say it again...

The world is watching every word you post. For many of our invited guests looking in from around the world, this may be the only view they ever have of the NAWCC. I believe we must at all times realize that the reputation not only of this organization but of all of us individually rises or falls whenever we speak through this board, and whether it rises or falls depends on what we say and how we say it.

Sincerely Yours,

Lindell V. Riddle
inappropriate link removed

[IMHO]

Mr. Riddle,

Agreed on at least one point, but to where would you move the private discussion?

I petitioned to the then leader of the effort to create the 185 *** Chapter and MB, Sam Kirk, for a private section there for discussions of this type. But then, you may not remember this as I don't believe you were very much involved in it at that point.

I also petitioned for the same on the 149 section of the MB so that members of each Chapter could speak freely amongst themselves.

But problems remain, such as:

1) the NAWCC MB does not have a section where all NAWCC members - not only members of Chapter 185 or 149 - might air their ideas among the membership, and,

2) a place where non-member visitors to the MB might do the same, and,

3) where posted policies exist and are implemented evenly and consistently by the Moderators and Admins evenly across all sections of the NAWCC MB

I ask, how could implementation be expected to be consistent without written guidelines?

And where do the members speak freely without the need to worry about offending "the public". We've had this technical capability to provide a members only section from day one.

I successfully lobbied for private areas for both Chapters 149 and 185 MB sections - and they have them.

Why aren't the rest of the NAWCC members given the same service on the general NAWCC MB so that this issue doesn't continue to come up - IN PUBLIC - again and again?

Mismanagement? I don't need to comment further as the member readers are capable of deciding for themselves.

Dave

[Tom Chaudoir]

Dave,

Every page clearly says "Horological Discussions Only". Well then, where can you have non-horological discussions, in public, on the message board?

The freeway on-ramps have signs that tell you that bicycles are not allowed. Well then, where can you ride bicycles on the freeway?

The answer in both cases is "somewhere else". Please take political discussions to the 149 private area, or the NAWCC forum (http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/nawcc/), or Sam's board, or Stan's board, or Tom's board, just not in our front yard.


Since the start of this topic, your complaint has changed, so I'll post this again.

If you have complaints about my performance, please feel free to take them to the Executive Director. Her email address and phone number can be found here (http://www.nawcc.org/headquarters/staff.htm)

Can we get back to horology now?

[IMHO]

We're talking about THIS MB - I see no politics here, at least not on my part anyway.

Is any suggestion to improve our MB, or any disagreement with the way things are done on the MB a "political" attack and therefore unwelcome? Is any suggestion on how to improve our MB a personal attack on the Admin?

It would seem that is the way this MB is being managed, or mismanaged - which is entirely my point.

You continaully disregard all good suggestions for positive change - no matter where from - as politically or personally motivated and unwelcome. I suppose this is all a waste of time until that changes.

Dave

Btw - this began, as it usually does, as a horological discussion. Yet the thread was subverted by the management of the MB, and the MB provides no other private place to discuss THIS MB among the members even though it has the ability to do so. So until you provide the Members with a better place to discuss THIS MB in private among the Members only, then I suppose every Member has no choice other than to do so right here on the NAWCC Members MB.

[Tom Chaudoir]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> .....Is any suggestion on how to improve our MB a personal attack on the Admin?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. People wanted a clock repair forum. Good idea. It's thriving. People wanted a watch repair forum. Good idea. It's thriving too. 149 wanted a private forum. It exists now.

Is every suggestion and demand met? Certainly not. You propose to change the very nature of the message board, and I believe that it would be a change for the worse. You are entitled to disagree with that opinion. Feel free to contact my boss. There's a link to her email around here somewhere.

Can we get back to horology now?

[IMHO]

Well - I must admit that I'm confused. I suggest we take ALL critiques, suggestions, etc., OFF the public forum and place them in a private area for discussion amongst ALL Members ONLY, and I'm told I'm suggesting a major change to the MB for the BAD.

Instead, we (the Members) have NO OTHER CHOICE than to place opinions in full PUBLIC VIEW.

Sorry, I guess I'm slow but I'm confused and I remain so.

Dave

[neighmond]

True, they DID work to create the chapter 185. Then L. V. Riddle bagan cleansing it of anyone he doesn't agree with.

Puts us right back where we started.

CJJ

[BILL KAPP]

Hi guys and gals,

Somehow I think all the unhappy members/and or invited guests (Non members?) already have access to the 149 and 185 private boards. Those of us who want to read and discuss those issues are free to join those chapters.

Back to the topic: Parting out watches / clocks is disturbing to a collector, but like many other examples of disturbing behavior, One can only control their own actions.

[Michael R. Dutton]

Absolutely. So when you see switched out movements and cases and dials for sale along with parted out hands and cases and movements and dials and stuff on T**-T**x's or BuyMoXXXXX's auctions on eBay, don't buy the stuff.

[Lindell V. Riddle]

Yep, I paid this guys NAWCC dues for a year out of my own pocket. He claimed to be interested in horology but could not afford to join. I tried to help someone I perceived as less fortunate. I felt helping him was the right thing to do. After a while, he went on personal attacks and refused to follow our posted rules or chapter by-laws. He was suspended until he could assure us he would comply. He refused to comply. This is one of those people who like to insult others and claim it is their right to do so.

The NAWCC must uphold a policy of "NO PERSONAL ATTACKS" in my opinion.

It is very sad that any member should ever be degraded in public.

:frown:

[Tom Chaudoir]

Evidently the answer to my question, "Can we get back to horology now?" is "No".

Look. You can't please all of the people all of the time. A couple of people are never going to be happy with anything that I do. I can live with that.

In the mean time, we are now returning to horological discussions only.

Regards,