An Odd Problem, Now Resolved

[Barry G]

Just thought I'd share this experience with the rest of you, just in case anybody runs into a similar problem down the line....

I just purchased a really nice 18 size, 24j Bunn Special. It's in very good shape, both running-wise and cosmetically, but the dial is rather plain. Well, I happen to have a REALLY sharp, original "gothic" dial on my 21j Bunn Special, so I thought I would swap dials. I removed the hands, took off the dials and made the swap. Unfortunately, the "better" dial wouldn't seat properly in the 24j Bunn. I'm not sure if it was a little too thick, a little too wide, or what, but it wouldn't go all the way down and I was unable to reattach the second hand. So, I decided to swap the dials back and just put eveything the way it was.

Sadly, when I put everything back the 24j Bunn Special no longer worked....

The watch was behaving rather strangely. If I gave it a little shake it started right up and ticked for exactly one minute and then suddenly stopped. I could tell it was exactly one minute because the second hand kept stopping at the same point. And it didn't slowly stop, either -- the balance wheel went from a full swing to zero motion in about one second.

I didn't think the problem was the balance staff, since the watch acted the same way regardless of the position in which I held it, and moving the balance wheel by hand had no effect -- only moving the entire watch would set the wheel in motion again. I was thinking maybe a cracked jewel, or a bent pivot, or a damaged wheel tooth, etc. But it just seemed odd that the watch would tick along just fine for exactly one minute and then stop....

Well, earlier this evening, just for the heck of it, I removed the second hand entirely. And wouldn't you know it -- the watch started right up and has been running strongly for the last 5 hours. I just replaced the second hand, and it is still running 5 minutes later. I'm not sure what, exactly, the problem was, but I can only guess that I had jammed the second hand on too hard the first time, and it was hitting some small bump in the dial.

Just food for thought, for whatever it's worth....

Regards,

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://www.ultranet.com/~barry/watches.htm)

[Barry G]

Just thought I'd share this experience with the rest of you, just in case anybody runs into a similar problem down the line....

I just purchased a really nice 18 size, 24j Bunn Special. It's in very good shape, both running-wise and cosmetically, but the dial is rather plain. Well, I happen to have a REALLY sharp, original "gothic" dial on my 21j Bunn Special, so I thought I would swap dials. I removed the hands, took off the dials and made the swap. Unfortunately, the "better" dial wouldn't seat properly in the 24j Bunn. I'm not sure if it was a little too thick, a little too wide, or what, but it wouldn't go all the way down and I was unable to reattach the second hand. So, I decided to swap the dials back and just put eveything the way it was.

Sadly, when I put everything back the 24j Bunn Special no longer worked....

The watch was behaving rather strangely. If I gave it a little shake it started right up and ticked for exactly one minute and then suddenly stopped. I could tell it was exactly one minute because the second hand kept stopping at the same point. And it didn't slowly stop, either -- the balance wheel went from a full swing to zero motion in about one second.

I didn't think the problem was the balance staff, since the watch acted the same way regardless of the position in which I held it, and moving the balance wheel by hand had no effect -- only moving the entire watch would set the wheel in motion again. I was thinking maybe a cracked jewel, or a bent pivot, or a damaged wheel tooth, etc. But it just seemed odd that the watch would tick along just fine for exactly one minute and then stop....

Well, earlier this evening, just for the heck of it, I removed the second hand entirely. And wouldn't you know it -- the watch started right up and has been running strongly for the last 5 hours. I just replaced the second hand, and it is still running 5 minutes later. I'm not sure what, exactly, the problem was, but I can only guess that I had jammed the second hand on too hard the first time, and it was hitting some small bump in the dial.

Just food for thought, for whatever it's worth....

Regards,

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://www.ultranet.com/~barry/watches.htm)

[Jon Hanson]

Barry,

Many times it is best to "leave well alone!"

Jon H.

[doug sinclair]

Barry,

It would seem to be clear that you pressed the seconds hand down a bit too far when you re-positioned it. Close examination would likely have revealed the tip touching the dial as you suggest. Sometimes a tiny bit of "run-out" in either the long fourth wheel pivot or in the tube on the seconds hand means the hand will "wobble" a bit differently in one position on the pivot than it will in another, assuming it was re-assembled in a different orientation. To get around this, it can be a useful exercise to take a thin piece of paper and cut a long, narrow, pie-shaped wedge out of it and position the paper so the notch straddles the hole in the dial where the seconds hand goes, and press the seconds hand on so that it bottoms on the paper rather than the dial. Then remove the paper laterally, of course. This will give you clearance between the hand and the dial.

Regards,
Doug S.
083914

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[John Cote]

Hi Barry,

Dials and dial feet are funny things. All of us have tried to fit dials from one watch of the same make and grade to another only to have the exchange not work very well. I looked at the way the 4th wheel pivots came up through the dials on several of my 18s BunnSpecials after reading your post and they are all slightly off center and all off center in slightly different ways.

I have sometimes had to bend dial feet a little when replacing a dial to get that pivot to be centered enough to get the second hand to seat and not rub the edge of the dial hole (It is a dangerous business). Obviously the dial foot holes in the movements are machined pretty much the same.

Why are dial feet always bent? Were they bent at the factory because the process of putting them on was not precise? Were they bent by watchmakers with heavy hands screwing down dial foot screws too hard? Do gremlins do it when the watches get locked in safe deposit boxes for years? Maybe someone knows.

John Cote

[Barry G]

Hey, John!

Actually, I don't think the problem is with the position of the feet on my dials. The dial I wanted to put on my 24j Bunn Special fit perfectly as far as the position of the feet was involved, and the seconds post was dead center of the hole. The dial simply wouldn't fit all the way down. I have noticed this with other dials between identical models where they SHOULD fit but don't, at least not quite.

Of course, it's always possible that I'm just not very good at swapping dials....

:wink:

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://www.ultranet.com/~barry/watches.htm)



[This message has been edited by Barry G (edited 09-13-2000).]

[Rick]

Barry,
Another tip is to take a fine watch dip oiler and place a small amount on the tip of the seconds hand. If the hand is hitting the dial it will leave a visible smear. It also works great if you think a minute hand is rubbing on the crystal. If the hands are rubbing you know exactly where, and the oil cleans up very easily.Looks like you are turning into an 18 size Illinois collector :smile:17,21,23 and 24 jewel Bunns and of course the Goldberg private label is very cool. I was wondering and I mean no offense, are you removing the dial foot screws completely?

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Rick White
#142342
NAWCC Chapters #21,#143

[Dave Haynes]

Barry: One last thing. I have seen dials that
had feet that were too far out on the dial.
That is, they looked straight, but when you pushed the dial down, the feet, being a bit
further out on the dial, would not allow
the dial to seat properly. This dial would work on one watch, not another. Go figure.
Some people don't appreciate how much
time can go into properly fitting a set of hands.

[Barry G]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone!

Rick: Actually, I was able to tell where the hands were rubbing simply by close observation. My point was simply that I didn't even think to look since it didn't dawn on me that this could be the problem. Oh -- and I don't actually own a 23j 18 size Illinois. At least not yet. In general, though, I LOVE 18 size watches, and I've also started collecting private label watches related to me or where I live. I not only have a "Goldberg" watch, but I have another 18 size Illinois marked "Boston".

Your comment regarding the dial foot screws is actually quite interesting. I've come to the conclusion that this whole problem may, in fact, be caused by the fact that the screws weren't completely screwed in. I screwed them in as far as they would go, but on close inspection they weren't actually that far in. This was causing the dial not not seat correctly. I think when I was swapping dials I actually swapped screws as well... Anyway, I swapped screws again and they fit much better.

Of course, I may have damaged the balance staff in the process of getting the movement back in the case, but that's another story [gee, people keep asking me if I ever plan on doing watch repair for a living, and I always say no, because I'm such a klutz....]

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://www.ultranet.com/~barry/watches.htm)



[This message has been edited by Barry G (edited 09-13-2000).]

[Rick]

Barry,
Sorry I thought your 23 jewel Bunn Special was an 18 size. It is a sweet one though. I like the Boston theme as a collecting base though. I recently picked up an 18 size model 1892 Crescent St. because it was a nice watch and it had my full initials RHW engraved victorian style on the back. I am still a railroad watch buff. I just don't ever think I will be able to afford those super unique watches like JH or other advanced collectors. I can still find quite a few interesting watches in my price range to keep me happy.

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Rick White
#142342
NAWCC Chapters #21,#143

[Larry Jones 98326]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barry G:

....Your comment regarding the dial foot screws is actually quite interesting. I've come to the conclusion that this whole problem may, in fact, be caused by the fact that the screws weren't completely screwed in. I screwed them in as far as they would go, but on close inspection they weren't actually that far in. This was causing the dial not not seat correctly. I think when I was swapping dials I actually swapped screws as well... Anyway, I swapped screws again and they fit much better.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Barry,

One potential problem, if I can try to clarify what I think Dave said, is that the dial feet can actually hit the bottom of the hole and keep the dial up off the dial plate. When this happens the dial feet can be shortened a little, taking care not to break the feet off.

In some instances, the steel dial screw can leave a small (or not so small), conical depression in the soft copper dial foot, especially if the dial screw has been overtightened. When switching dials, the depression in the dial foot will align with the point of the dial screw, and sometimes this will lift the dial up off the dial plate. You can tell this is the problem if, while holding the dial down gently, it still rises when you tighten a dial screw. Removal of the depression from the dial foot will solve this problem.

I don't mention all this because I condone dial switching, but in many cases a timepiece with an incorrect (non-original) or badly damaged dial can be improved by installing a correct dial from a parts watch or elsewhere.

Later, Larry

[This message has been edited by Larry Jones 98326 (edited 09-14-2000).]