BW Reymond or Ball Trainmaster ?

[Kent]

Ram:

Watch collectors are jaded. Although all on its own, a B.W. Raymond is a high-grade watch, to most collectors, its just another B.W Raymond, something that (seeningly) can be had anytime.

On the other hand, the name "Ball" on a watch is something that gets their blood flowing, there's a "mystique" associated with the name. Ball charged a premium for what was probably a cut above the competition, but he excelled at hyping his product and creating an image. Some of the myths about railroad watches, fostered by Ball, are still with us today.

I'm not sure which of the two was a higher quality or what the relative quantities are, but the Ball probably cost more originally. Neither orignial price, nor relative quantity, really has a major impact on the relative prices today. When you buy a Ball, you're paying for the status of owning a Ball. When you get right down to it, the BWR is only just another Elgin.

I don't necessarily agree with that line of thinking, but I believe the Ball costs more simply because people are willing to pay more based on the Ball name.

Kent

[John Cote]

I have owned both of these watches, and, in my opinion, there is no comparison. The Ball is a superior watch by a mile. That 25j automatic ETA movement is smoth as silk. Also (again in my opinion only) the dial on the Ball is "way cool" compared to the BW. The dials on those BWs faded very easily. Many of the good ones you see are refinished.

John Cote

[Kent]

So when was the Hamilton 500 Electric introduced? I think there was a railraod version of it.

Kent

[Larry Jones 98326]

Kent,

The Hamilton Electric was introduced in 1957. The RR model came out in 1963 according to Rene Rondeau's book. I believe the Accutron came out in 1960-61, but I'm not sure when the RR version Accutron first arrived.

Larry

[John Cote]

Wayne,

I'll have to think about the Accutron being the coolest RR wrist watch...Hmmmmmmm...

John Cote :wink:

[Tom McIntyre]

The Elgin Durabalance was a rip-off of the Mido Multifort balance and Elgin was sued for its use and lost. I will try to find the reference to the proceedings.

The anecdotal story is that Elgin was so confident that the courts would not support a suit by a foreign watchmaker that they refused to license the design even though it was an outright copy.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
President, NAWCC Chapter 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.mcintyre.com/McIntyre)

[Larry Jones 98326]

......John and Wayne........

Marching to the beat of a different hummer...........

[Jerry Treiman]

My brother, Larry, and I used to speculate that if Bulova made an Accutron repeater that would be a real humdinger http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Tom McIntyre]

Regarding Mido and Elgin, it was Wyler, not Mido. I still don't have the details. The Wyler my improved (I think) recollection is that it was the Wyler Incaflex.

When you get a little older, the terms have a tendency to run together in the mists of time. :wink:

------------------
Tom McIntyre
President, NAWCC Chapter 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.mcintyre.com/McIntyre)

[Dave Haynes]

As pointed out above, the DuraBalance was a rip-off of the Wyler Incaflex which was in use by Wyler since the forties (I think one of the best watch companies, and a superior
innovation).
I've owned both of the Railroad Watches involved in this tread, and if I'm not mistaken, the B.W. Raymond had a Swiss
A.S. movement. In any event, the Ball used a
common ETA automatic movement and was no
different than any Benrus, Croton,or Wyler
using that movement. I happen to like ETA
automatics because they are very efficient
self-winders, their cannon pinion design was
somewhat flawed, but they are good.
The Ball auto was well cased and had a good dial; easy to read. Beyond that, There was little difference except price.

Elgin made wrist watch movements are a good reason why they went belly up. I once talked with an old-timer who worked on Elgin wrist watches at the factory, he said that they had to put large, powerful mainsprings in them just to get them to run at all. Also, he said that many would not run right off the assembly line. He called them "junk".
Anyone who has worked on a 539 will probably agree with that assessment.
My vote for the best Railroad wrist watch goes to the Universal Geneve "Railrouter"

[Greg Frauenhoff]

According to my Father who work for Elgin in the late 40s and early 50s, it was "common knowledge" that 25% or more of the Elgin ladies WW left the factory in less than good running order. The Lord Elgin mvts were a different story, as they were generally considered to be a good watch.

One of my Dad's opinions about the demise of the American watch industry was that their wrist watches were just mini pocket watches, rather than newly designed wrist watches. The American companies simply took a pocket watch and scaled it down, which didn't work too well in many respects.

Greg

[Dave Haynes]

Wayne: The Wyler Incaflex was used in the forties, not the thirties. I have a couple of
pre-war Wylers, and they are not incaflex.
I said I thought that my B.W. Raymond was
a Swiss movt. I could be wrong. It was a
sweep second which suggests Swiss, and the books show their examples as sub-seconds
which suggests Elgin. Also they are 23j
which would be odd since Lord Elgins were
mostly 21j. I don't know.
My feelings about Elgin wrist movements are
just my opinion. The average watches, 4/0
5/0 and 554, 539 just seem to be very fussy
when compared to a Bulova, Hamilton or LeCoultre. Walthams are like this to a certain degree as well. This does not apply to the pocket watches which are fine.
But remember, this is just my opinion based on screwing around with my own watches, I am not a trained watchmaker.

[Dave Haynes]

Wayne:
I have seen many watches by Wyler that are not Incaflex. They made a watch during the war called "Defender" of which I have two,
both have shock resistance, but not Incaflex.
I have seen many post war Wylers, and all
are Incaflex, so I don't know. It could be that it was too expensive to put on every watch? The Incaflex balance looks different than the Elgin (I've only seen it on two
watches). The idea is the same, the balance arms are flexible and shocks are absorbed
by the flexing of the balance instead of spring loaded jewel settings. It must have worked well since the Wyler salesmen would demonstrate it by throwing the watch across the shop and advising the jeweler to pick it up and see if it was still running. In an age of chronic busted balance staffs, it had to be an impressive thing.
I've looked in all of my books and cannot verify a Swiss/sweep B.W.R.

[Glenn Morrison]

I have a April 1961 Elgin service bulletin. 23.0 discusses the 730A. It shows a drawing of the 730A with a sweep second hand. The second hand is listed later under domestic sweep second hands #8151. Imported hands are listed seperatly. 730A does not appear in any of the listing under interchangability with Swiss movements.
www.ticntoc.la2.com/pics/elgin730Ab.JPG (http://www.ticntoc.la2.com/pics/elgin730Ab.JPG)