Did Hamilton ever produce a railroad pocket watch

[railman]

that had a single sunk dial? Tonight, looking at my vast collection of 6 watches, I noticed the one with the "Canadian" 24 hour (red) marks was single sunk. It was bought from a reputable dealer. Did Hamilton just ship the movements to Canada and they added the cases, hands and dials? Really curious on this one... Later tonight, I'll check and see if the case (model 2) is Canadian... Any help is appreciated...

PS, It's a 992B

[This message has been edited by railman (edited 10-31-2002).]

[railman]

that had a single sunk dial? Tonight, looking at my vast collection of 6 watches, I noticed the one with the "Canadian" 24 hour (red) marks was single sunk. It was bought from a reputable dealer. Did Hamilton just ship the movements to Canada and they added the cases, hands and dials? Really curious on this one... Later tonight, I'll check and see if the case (model 2) is Canadian... Any help is appreciated...

PS, It's a 992B

[This message has been edited by railman (edited 10-31-2002).]

[terry hall]

single sunk dials were available.

I doubt though you will find any reference to canada in that model 2 case.......


there is a thread posted in the past couple of days that discuss the Hamilton-Canada connection........

[Ball992B]

Railman,
That sounds like the dial that is often found on the 992b marked US Gov't or US Army.

Single sunk box car with open "3"

[railman]

Opened the watch. It's American. Straight line serial number ( not a V )on the case. No Armed Service marks on the movement or case. Case marked Hamilton. Looks to be 1940'ish. Darn, I should have written down the s/n. I guess the red flag went up when I noticed a single sunk dial. It looks like it was never carried. Wish I had the bakelite cigarette box in some color other than ivory...

[terry hall]

Which case model? What's the serial numbers of movement/case.....

Thanks to Don, you can look for your case here....
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=80723

[Tom Huber]

I have a 992b, SN C-175,495, that has a bold, boxcar SS porcelein dial marked Hamilton. The watch is in a model 11 case, SN K-149,054. I have every reason to believe that the dial is original to the watch.

Tom

[railman]

Terry,
I sent you an email. Let me know if you received it.

Railman

[Kent]

railman:

The 992B in a 1953 T. Eaton cataloge seems to have a single sunk Canadian" dial. It can be seen at:
http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1953/m_t_eaton_large.html
(you may have to copy this link and paste it in your browser address bar since directly linking to this website from the NAWCC Message Board is not possible)

Kent :smile:

[Jeff Hess]

hahahaha

Some nut stole your link.....


Jeff hess

[Kent]

No, Jeff ...

... If you copy the text and paste it in your browser's address field, it'll work.

Kent :biggrin:

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 11-02-2002).]

[Jeff Hess]

YEh I know,

But how did Wayne's diatribe get misappropriated?

This is very veey bad...

Jeff Hess

[Jon Hanson]

Where is the diatribe??? I can't find it?

[Jeff Hess]

jon,

What browser are you using...I get some diatribe about Mr. Hubby and Mr. Gunderson. I will email it to you.


Jeff

[Jeff Hess]

I think our system got hacked. I have asked the fella who might have did this to take it down.

Jeff Hess

[Ariel]

What is going on here-what is this and where is it?

Jeff, could you print it?

Ariel

[Jeff Hess]

When you click on the link directly (we are using I-net explorer) it takes you to a diatribe about Mr, Hubby and Mr. Gunderson and the NAWCC. Real nasty stuff. IF you cut and paste the lin it will nto appear. I called a couple of friends and they are getting the diatribe too. Bizarre. I have emailed you the diatribe...

Jeff Hess

[lots of time]

I got the same junk when I tryed

[lots of time]

Hell hath no fury sayeth the LORD (Elgin) this has gone far enough.........

[terry hall]

this is the same message that was linked to in the 1000 other deleted posts...

[Jeff Hess]

Here it is: While Wayne may have had a legitmate beef, he has gone way overboard now. When he posted some stuff on the Wrist watch board, I thought that because some of it was self-serving and becasue he had links to commercial sites that I might delete it. But I let it stay for a while because it DID have some helpful infol. I was on the fence. But hacking into our system is WRONG and insulting to the members. I have been corresponding via email with Wayne and have asked him to take it down. He has made it clear that he fears no retribution and is full of righteious indignation over what he fears is unfair treatment. I was willing to intervene and/or mediate until I noticed the hack. Here is what shows up when you click onthe link: 1,000 posts deleted!
Hundreds of Hours of Work Gone!
On 10/11/02, Tom Chaudoir, the NAWCC message board administrator, deleted all 1,000 of the messages that I had posted over the last two years.

Why?

I don't really know. Contrary to the rules that Tom is supposed to follow, he never told me that he deleted my posts, nor has he ever given me a reason why. I had to hear about the deletions from third parties.

The following are the two messages that Tom is so certain that they should have been deleted from the pocket watch forum that he was willing to escalate the situation to the point of deleting the rest of my posts. I feel so certain that these were on-topic and appropriate for the NAWCC pocket watch forum that I was willing to take a stand on principle and take that risk.

Deleted Post: Waltham Handbook
Deleted Post: Among the Elgin Watchmakers

What did John Hubby, the 2nd VP of the NAWCC, say about the above two posts being deleted? Well, he said "A proper comment might have been to request him {me} to also post to the Horological Books Forum, but delete? Why?" To the best of my knowledge, John's question has never been answered.

While I don't know for certain what the real reason was for Tom to delete my posts, it is my guess that it is because he can not deal with having his authority questioned and can not deal with the idea that I could create this web page, which is beyond his control.


Why the NAWCC MB No Longer Has Permission to Use This Website
The NAWCC message board has had a long history of abusive behavior by various forum moderators. Recently, there was an incident that, in and of itself was not a big deal, but since it was part a pattern of abuse it has been "the straw that broke the camels back." Howard Gunderson, the Pocketwatch Forum moderator deleted the above two posts, which I believe were appropriate and on-topic to the forum he moderates. Tom Chaudoir, the message board administrator, has locked and/or deleted messages that were posted to the Message Board Problems forum about the deletions that Howard made. Tom has also completely supported Howard in his actions.
Attempts to resolve this issue have been met with censorship, demands for apologies from Howard and Tom and deaf ears by the NAWCC. Since the people running the NAWCC message board appear to have no interest in changing, I feel I can no longer support it with my time, the bandwidth my website provides to users of the message board, and all other forms of help.

As a result, all attempts to access this website via the NAWCC message board are being censored. All complaints about this situation directed toward me will fall on deaf ears.

DO NOT EMAIL ME ABOUT THIS!

If you feel you must contact someone about this situation, I suggest contacting John Hubby, the chair of the Web and Technology Committee, Tom Chaudoir, the administrator of the NAWCC message board, and/or Howard Gunderson, the moderator of the NAWCC pocket watch forum.

More details about the cause of this situation are available. Complete details are, of course, much longer than this summary and I can't make them available without permission to release private email. (The summary was last updated on 10/17/02.)

I have offered to add a link to a rebuttal web page for Tom or anyone else to dispute anything that I have said here, but so far, I have gotten no response to the offer. I suspect that it is easier to have the attitude of "Trust us. We are the {MB} government. We know what is best." Then they can dismiss this problem with short, unsubstantiated phrases like "we tried to work it out", or "his web page is biased", or "you need to know the complete story {but we won't tell you it}".
---------------

Odd stuff. Wayne, you have overstepped your bounds my friend.

Jeff Hess

[Jon Hanson]

Jeff,

You are absolutely correct. It appears like a temper tantrum -- "if I can't have my way and you don't do what I want, I will take my ball and wagon and go home!" BUT, as you can see, he wishes to keep it up with clever computer trickery!

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

Jon Hanson

[lots of time]

Hmmm what was this posting about? I thought it had something to do with Hamilton single sunk dials.. Maybe I am wrong...
Perhaps there should be a seperate forum for "pissing contests"

[lots of time]

Wayne, I am sure you are reading this if for no other reason than to see what effect you are having.. For gods sake man.. you have a good site.. keep it up.... you are appreciated.. what do you want? You are recognized as the Elgin expert... What is it that you are trying to accomplish? It doesnt look like any apologies are forthcoming and disruptions of legitimate postings are not furthering your cause.. Like they say in grade school, perhaps its time for a "time out" There is no winners in these on line fueds... As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, AMEN

[Jeff Hess]

If WAyne ever had a leg to stand on with his arguments, he has lost it. Hacking of our system should NOT be allowed no matter how intense the righteous indignation.


Jeff Hess

[Tom McIntyre]

I don't support what Wayne has done and I have asked him to remove it.

However, characterizing it as a hack of our site is incorrect. What he has done is to install a script on his site that recognizes when a link originates on this message board and redirects it to his complaint page. He has not in any way touched the NAWCC site.

This has been discussed pretty extensively in the Message Board Problems forum.

The offensive linkage will only occur if someone posts a link to Wayne's web site on this message board as Kent did above. Kent probably did not intend to do that, but the UBB software converts any web reference to a link automatically.

If Kent had referred to elginwatch.org, the software would not have converted the link and a reader would have needed to cut and paste it. In such a case the complaint page would not be seen.
------------------
Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)


[This message has been edited by Tom McIntyre (edited 11-03-2002).]

[Jeff Hess]

What he has done is to install a script on his site that recognizes when a link originates on this message board and redirects it to his complaint page..

--------------

Well, I guess in a strict sense, you are correct. But I have seen the term "hack" defined as "One who has superior knowledge of computing and uses it to undermine or interfere with legitmate users"

In the above more liberal interpertation what he did was HACK.

And it is bad news. If this has been discussed before why didn't anyone do anything about it?

He is corrupting an otherwise helpful thread by inserting his own goofy agenda where it was not intentioned!!!!!

This guy is troubling. Jeff Hess

[mikeh]

Jeff,

What Wayne has done is childish, rude, simple-minded, stupid, moronic, and just plain goofy, not to mention destructive to the NAWCC.

But Tom is absolutely right. He has not 'hacked' this site in any way, shape or form.

I don't know where your definition for hacking came from, but that could well included spammers, whose tactics I deplore just as much as I do the ones that Wayne has employed.

I would simply request that Kent remove the link, or at least edit it as Tom suggested.

Regards,
Mike

[lots of time]

this is all indeed unfortunate.. He is on a mission and damn the torpedos... With his knowledge and abilities, he would be and has been a valuable member of a rather small group of dedicated horological researchers. For his sake and for the sake of others interested in the study of horology, I sincerely wish this crap would end.
I know some would say .. so what? copy and paste.. but he obviously did a lot of work to get his site to the stage it is at and now he is tearing it down... dont make sense to me ...Personaly, I dont think he should have interfered with the 149 fund raising by offering free copies until after the fact, then by all means, let people know where they can find the copys on line.. I understand there were limited printed copys available. I think it was heavy handed to delete his postings, but that is a decision that was made by the powers that be. Common sense has to prevail somewhere along the line. Personal vendetas such as between Dave and Wayne only stir the pot. What the hell are we here for? Horology and the appreciation and learning about our beloved pocket watches or to prove who is the king of the hill? I am not a doctor or a lawyer and dont have a phd in anything.. 2 yrs of college and a degree in mortuary science. Perhaps appropriate in that this issue is DEAD and should be buried.
btw.. I failed spelling, but then again, the dr. failed punctuation.. we all have our faults

[Jeff Hess]

Butt Mike,

Broad definitions be damned....whatever you call it, he HAS "MISDIERECTED" (purposely) a post that was intended to go elsewhere to further his own agenda. Whatever you call it is wrong.

In his EMAIL's to me he has strongly indicated that he will NOT take it down and that he fears no repercussions.

Jeff Hess

[abereiter]

Hey heres an idea. LEAVE THE MAN ALONE!!!!!!! It is his site he can do what HE wants. You all are under some kind of impression that because his site has something you want or is related to watches you have a say in it. Well you dont!! Some people dont like to be jerked around. OK. Just let him be.

Now what were we talking about? Oh yah, Hamilton dials. Back to the subject please.

------------------
Aaron Bereiter
NAWCC #156432
Proud *** Member #55

[Jeff Hess]

Aaron,

You make a good point. Perhaps this is being talked to death. But you have also missed the point. The guy overrode another guys informational link with his own link!

How would you feel if you posted some information that you wanted to share and someone completely CHANGED that info to reflect something totally different?

This is what happened here. Wayne has a goo dsite, but he should NOT FORCE his agenda on others.

Jeff Hess

[Tom McIntyre]

Jeff, I think this has been talked to death also but I would like to point out a flaw in your analogy.

What Kent posted was the address of a source of information that was not his own. He had given the information to Wayne to use. He also gave directions on how to go in the back door and find the information.

This is more like someone coming to your jewelry store to look for an item someone had told him was there and discovering that you had decided to run for Governor of Florida (by the way a great idea) and had converted your store to a campaign office.

The instantaneous nature of the Internet makes this misdirection a bit more troublesome, but I think it is the same.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[mikeh]

Butt :wink: Jeff,

You said:
Broad definitions be damned....whatever you call it, he HAS "MISDIERECTED" (purposely) a post that was intended to go elsewhere to further his own agenda. Whatever you call it is wrong.
[HR][HR]

http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/confused.gif

Isn't that essentially what I said?

Regards,
Mike

[michael h schneider]

I don't see what the problem is.

Wayne has his site, and he's used his time, money and expertise, to post a lot of information about Elgin. What's the problem?

He's also used his site to express his opinions about certain aspects of the NAWCC. It's his site. His money. What's the problem?

In the past, he had volunteered to use his site (his money) as a resource for the NAWCC: to allow direct links from here to there, so that the information on his site was directly available to help answer questions posed on the NAWCC site. His site, his money, his choice to allow it to be used by us. What's the problem?

Now he believes he's been treated badly by the NAWCC, and he no longer wants to contribute his time and money - his site - to help the NAWCC. So he has disabled, redirected, direct links from here to there. His site - his time and money - isn't it his choice whether to allow it to be used for the benefit of the NAWCC?

Now, instead of him allowing links from here to his pictures on his site, he's redirecting those links to his opinion page. His opinions on his page on his site. Supported by his time and money. He could have had the links lead to a page that said simply 'access denied', but he choice to use his site to express his opinions, to explain why he has withdrawn permission for the NAWCC to use his site as a resource. His site, his money, his choice. What's the problem?

Mike Schneider

[abereiter]

Mike, You said it well. To others Quit bugging Wayne or we may all loose access to his wealth of information. At least he is kind enough to offer it to the public. There are alot of others out there with valuable horological info I'm sure. Why dont you guys go piss them off and maybe they will share the info and research. Yah right!! You all (and you know who you are) need a life. You need to guit pokeing and screwing with people or are you happy to go aroung pissing off the world one person at a time!!!!

As Jon stated in a previous thread 20,000 posts. We are running low on web space and we fill valuable web space with this crap.
------------------
Aaron Bereiter
NAWCC #156432
Proud *** Member #55

[This message has been edited by abereiter (edited 11-04-2002).]

[jwdavis]

I don't normally get involved in these "happy little moments" in the horological community, but, railman, I hope your original question was sufficiently answered before the mother ship landed and abducted your thread. :smile:

Jack

[terry hall]

Sure it does !

I figure he is manily talking about the heavy gothic single sunk dial or the montgomery single sunk dials....

Think RoyE has one selling on EB now...

Here is a 16 size 24Hr dial (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/24ballhamiltondial.jpg)

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 11-04-2002).]

[Kent]

railman:

Now that we've gotten back on track, to provide a further answer to your question ... ... Did Hamilton just ship the movements to Canada and they added the cases, hands and dials? ...[HR][HR]

Hamilton provided both movements with dials and complete watches. Either of these would have been shipped to Canada. During the 'teens, when requested, Hamilton would have furnished the 16 or 18 size movements (or watches) with 24 hour Canadian dials as shown in the illustration from the Hamilton 1914 Timekeeper, seen at: http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1914/m_hamilton_canadian_monty_dial.html
(you should copy this link and paste it in your browser address bar since directly linking to this website from the NAWCC Message Board is not possible)

As illustrated in my earlier post (above all the crap), even the 992B, which was nominally sold only as a cased watch, was sold to Canadian distributors as a movement (in Eaton's instance, with a single-sunk 24-hour dial) to be placed in Canadian-made cases.

Or, U.S. cases may have been ordered. In conversations with Mr. Peter Kushnir, a former time service official of the Canadian Pacific Railway, he related seeing boxes of U.S.-made railroad watch movements and separate (factory) cases arriving to be assembled in Canada. The import duties were less on "watch parts" than on complete watches.

Kent :smile:

Edited to move the Canadian dial picture to a permanent location.

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 11-05-2002).]

[wayne]

WILL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DOWNLOAD MY COMPLETE WEBSITE PLEASE STOP!!!


It happened yesterday, and it has started again today. Some people, I don't know who, visited this thread, then went to my website, poked around a little bit and then started trying to download my entire website.

I suspect that these people may have read Aaron's (abereiter) post to this thread about how "we may all lose access to his information". They have probably also read Tom Chaudoir's comments about how everything on the Internet is transitory and have, unfortunately, taken his advice to download stuff that you want to keep.

PLEASE!

YOU DON'T NEED TO LISTEN TO TOM!


First, my website will not go away for a very long time if I have anything to say about it.

Secondly, due to a *&$# company about 2 years ago which tried to download everything multiple times, I have had to impose bandwidth caps. This bandwidth cap started out at 15MB per day, but I have raised it several times and it is now 60MB per day. That is more than enough for 99.9% of my visitors and more than you can probably read in a day.

Third, there is about 2,000MB of data on my website. If you try to download everything, it will take you about a month to do so.

Fourth, there was one guy a few months ago who was able to get around the bandwidth cap. I banned him with a very similar redirection that I have banned direct links from this message board. He then sent me a nice note apologizing and said he wouldn't do it again. I promptly lifted the ban, and he hasn't done it again.

Please don't make me ban whoever you folks are who are currently downloading more info that you can possibly use! Take what you need, when you need it and leave some bandwidth available for other people!


*sigh*

I'm sorry to have to post this right after this thread got back on track, but as I said, this there appears to have been something about this thread that has caused people to do the "wrong thing".

[GandalfPC]

Indeed wayne, you were correct.

After seeing that you might be taking down your website I figured that it was a good idea to download it.

I have ceased. If you take it down and the info is lost, so be it.

[Jeff Hess]

Would the people who are trying to do business with me please stop too! Dang!

Stop it!

Quit calling me day and night at my office 800-9224377! DANG!

[MIKE NARDICK]

You Guys just don't know when to quit!

------------------
Mike Nardick
#144409
Chapter #37 Allegheny
NAWCC-*** Charter member #026

[Wes]

Should the moderator "moderate" the personal attacks???

Saying Wayne isn't the Elgin man is like saying I am not a newbie!!! http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif

Hopefully this will all blow over soon and we will have some sort of UNITY in this group. Is that even possible? It's just that all of this "he did this" and "he did that" crap reflects negatively upon us as a whole.

Get over it!

------------------
NAWCC# 156994

[This message has been edited by PoorDudeFromCal (edited 11-06-2002).]

[Tom McIntyre]

I am sure GandalfPC did not intend it, but a download of his website was a classic denial of service attack on the site. That is why Wayne is upset. Not because someone else wants the freely available information.

In the old days we had a couple of denial of service attacks here. They are very troublesome.


------------------
Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[LStratton]

Dave C.
Your personal vendetta has run it's course. It is getting tiresome.

[GandalfPC]

Before this thread gets any longer...

Please keep posts of this nature off the Pocket Watch forum - they belong in the Message Board Problems/Comments forum.

I have ceased reading the Problems/Comments forum so that I may avoid these type of posts, and would like to be able to enjoy the Pocket Watch forum as it was meant to be.

[railman]

I'm more confused than ever. Sorry I started the thread...