American Waltham Information

[Wayne C. Anderson]

I have aquired a 16S Waltham pocket watch, SN 20831441, Pendant wind/set, and the "American Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide" by Meggers & Ehrhardt Revised 1999 EA47 lists it as a 1899 or 1908 model.
How can I determine if its a 1899 or 1908 model? Are there specific items to look for to confirm the model? Thanks for any information that you are willing to share.

[Wayne C. Anderson]

I have aquired a 16S Waltham pocket watch, SN 20831441, Pendant wind/set, and the "American Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide" by Meggers & Ehrhardt Revised 1999 EA47 lists it as a 1899 or 1908 model.
How can I determine if its a 1899 or 1908 model? Are there specific items to look for to confirm the model? Thanks for any information that you are willing to share.

[Barry G]

Well, the easiest way to tell is by the date of manufacture. The serial number on your watch dates it to about 1917, which means it is not likely to be a Model #1899...

Barry

------------------
My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[Wayne C. Anderson]

Does anyone have any records about the dates of manufacture of the 1899 model? and the 1908 Model? Such as when did production start, and when did production end for these models? Would anyone have any information that they would be willing to share?

[Barry G]

I'm sure you already know this, but just in case I'll point out that the model names are based on the first year of production. I don't know the exact month, but they started making the Model #1899 in 1899, and they made it until 1908 when they introduced the Model #1908.

Barry

------------------
My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)



[This message has been edited by Barry G (edited 06-30-2002).]

[Tom Gettman]

From the 1940 Waltham Material Catalog page 51: "The first movement made in 16 size 1899 Model was numbered 8,368,001. The first 16 Size 1908 Model was numbered 16,188,001."

"All material used in 16 Size 1908 Model is the same as used in 16 Size 1899 Model with the follwoing exceptions: Balance Cock, P Grade using 4889A Regulator; Crown Wheel; Crown Wheel Washer; and Winding Pinion."

[Wayne C. Anderson]

Thanks Barry & Tom

[Tom McIntyre]

Just for a clarification, I don't think there is any reason to believe they stopped making the 1899 model in 1908. They could very well have continued them for another 5 years depending on stock on hand and demand.

Barry is right that a 20 million serial number is not likely to be an 1899.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Spike]

The last Model #1899 serial number I could find in Ehrhardt's Waltham Pocket Watch Identification and price Guide was #17,222,500; the approximate production date would have been 1908.

The last Model #1908 serial number is listed as #30,820,000; approximate production date 1941.

[Tom McIntyre]

For serial numbers below 7,555,000 there are factory records that show when the watches were sold. After that date there do not seem to be any records.

In the absence of records, the only way to definitely date watches is by presentations in original cases. This method is a bit haphazard since it represents the retail sales and the factory records represent the wholesale sale.

Within the records that do exist there is as much as a 5 year discrepancy between dates on watches in adjacent runs. I don't think there is any reason to suppose that this discrepancy disappears for watches that don't have records available.

I don't know where Roy would have gotten the actual date for a watch later than 7,555,000 but even with some dated examples, there is no coherent data. It would be wonderful if the later Waltham job records ever turn up.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Spike]

The approximate production date table on p. 105 of Shugart 2002, although differing slightly from the one in Ehrhardt (and likewise not specific about the source), yields the same results.

[Tom McIntyre]

I don't really know how the dates were arrived at. Waltham gives a gross date table in the repair parts serial number list. One could also infer dates by interpolating between the first appearance of models.

However, the point I was trying to make is that there is no date information specific to a particular serial number after 7,555,000. You can make generalizations about serial numbers in such and such a range are likely to fall in between this year and that year but the variations in sales dates probably persisted.

In the higher grades in particular, the watches may be several years younger than the approximation tables would indicate.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Spike]

Tom notes that the only way to definitely date watches is by presentations in original cases, and that this method is a bit haphazard since it represents the retail sales and the factory records represent the wholesale sale.

Without disputing Tom?s observation in any way, I submit that insofar as presentation dates aren?t earlier than production dates, the earliest presentation year occurring in a batch of watches within a given serial-number range would be an accurate indicator of the production year if the number of watches sampled were large enough. Someone a lot handier with statistics than I am could probably tell us the relationship between how many watches we?d need to look at and how reliable our conclusions would be.

No?

[Kent]

No, not necessarliy!

Such a method would work reasonably well if all of the watches in a run were finished within a few short months of each other.

However, as Tom alluded to, without actually spelling it out, was that as the grades increased in quality, sales were likely to be slower. A run of watches may have had a set of serial numbers assigned, and parts may have been punched out and finished in the gray (an assembled set of parts, but not in any way actually finished into a running watch), but the expensive labor of finishing may have been held back until current stocks of finished watches were depleted. If I remember correctly, the years 1893 and 1907 were particularly bad, economically. Watches started at the beginning of those years may well have been held back from finishing for two or three years or more.

In the book "Timing a Century - History of the Waltham Watch Company," Charles W. Moore, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1945, page 135 describes a post World War I labor shortage as seriously affecting the production of high grade watches (which require the greatest amount of labor).

"A letter dated October 16, 1920, from the office of the Superintendent of Time Service for a group of Eastern railroads reads: Am simply swamped with orders for Riverside and 21 jewel Crescent Streets and 23 jewel Vanguards with Vanguards far in the lead. If at all possible send at least one hundred, have at least fifty 23 jewel Vanguards. Will take one hundred and fifty if you will send them.[HR][HR] "A pencil notation at the bottom of the letter bears witness to the desperate shortage of high-grade movements:

"Will ship 15 within a week
5 Vang.
5 Cres.
5 Riv."

There is no doubt that the dates supposed by the serial numbers of these watches are considerably earlier than when the watches were actually made.

Also, as parts stocks were drawn down, that would not necessarily occur in sequential serial number order. I'm not sure how it was done at Waltham, but Hamilton records indicate that during the years 1900-1913, watches with adjacent serial numbers may have finish dates as much as 2 years apart, with higher numbers shown as being finished earlier.

Kent :smile:

[Spike]

:redface:

[Jerry Treiman]

I have a couple examples of high-grade movements from the same serial number group where the finish details on the movement indicate that the finishing was probably several years apart (both Elgin and Waltham). In the instance of a couple of Waltham 12-size movements from the 8-millions, one has a riveted balance staff and was probably finished around 1898, as the serial number would suggest. It is known that movements were often finished and adjusted in groups of ten. Another movement, from the preceding group of ten, has a friction balance staff indicating finish in 1899 or later. Furthermore, the style of the original case is one that was not common until after around 1905, so I believe this demonstrates both a lower number finished later and a probable several year interval for finishing high-grade movements from the same run.

[Spike]

Observations like Jerry?s raise the issue of the definition of ?date of production.? It sounds like one part of a movement could?ve been produced in year A and another part in year B, the parts assembled in year C, finished and adjusted in year D, left the factory in year E, cased and sold in year F, and perhaps engraved with a presentation date in year G. And years A, B, C, D, E, F and/or G could be different for two watches with consecutive serial numbers.

In such an environment might ?date of production? be more realistically understood as a period of time rather than as a particular year?

[Tom McIntyre]

For Waltham watches up to 7,555,000 the records show the date they left the door as a range between date A and date B. A and B are usually less than a year apart, so the information is at least interesting, if not particularly useful.

I recently bought a watch because the information in the serial number list said "not delivered" and I found that very interesting. From the run of the watch and that notation, I concluded that it is probably one of the very last high grade 1872 models actually sold.

------------------
Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174
NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)