A watch for everyday carry.

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Friends,

For many years now, I've been carrying an 1871 Elgin, H.Z. Culver pocket watch, in addition to the wrist watch that I usually wear. I have added a nice raw silk ribbon and a reproduction 18th century fob to my Elgin, and usually carry it in the watch pocket of my jeans. It kept fairly good time, even from the beginning. But, once I had it serviced and lubed, a few years ago, it's kept absolutely stellar time!!! I only have to reset it every few weeks, instead of every few days, as I did before I had it serviced. I love carrying a pocket watch and wish to keep doing so.

However, I am also worried about wearing my wonderful Elgin out, by using it every single day! May I ask for a suggestion, of a more modern watch, one for which parts will be readily available for my lifetime, that I might carry everyday? I do have one Waltham watch, circa 1909, but have yet to have it serviced. Though it has more jewels than the Elgin, and is in a silver case, instead of silverode, without servicing, it does not keep very good time, and is off a few minutes in a few days. If any of you have a suggestion for a watch that I could carry everyday, and not have to worry about wearing it out, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Or, if you think my Elgin will continue to give me outstanding service, even though it's being used every day, please let me know. I take great pride in carrying and using my pocket watch every day, and wish to continue to do so. I just want to make sure that I'm not wearing out my Elgin by using it in such a manner, and will replace it with something else, if that would be best. Thanks, very much, for your thoughts and suggestions, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Friends,

For many years now, I've been carrying an 1871 Elgin, H.Z. Culver pocket watch, in addition to the wrist watch that I usually wear. I have added a nice raw silk ribbon and a reproduction 18th century fob to my Elgin, and usually carry it in the watch pocket of my jeans. It kept fairly good time, even from the beginning. But, once I had it serviced and lubed, a few years ago, it's kept absolutely stellar time!!! I only have to reset it every few weeks, instead of every few days, as I did before I had it serviced. I love carrying a pocket watch and wish to keep doing so.

However, I am also worried about wearing my wonderful Elgin out, by using it every single day! May I ask for a suggestion, of a more modern watch, one for which parts will be readily available for my lifetime, that I might carry everyday? I do have one Waltham watch, circa 1909, but have yet to have it serviced. Though it has more jewels than the Elgin, and is in a silver case, instead of silverode, without servicing, it does not keep very good time, and is off a few minutes in a few days. If any of you have a suggestion for a watch that I could carry everyday, and not have to worry about wearing it out, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Or, if you think my Elgin will continue to give me outstanding service, even though it's being used every day, please let me know. I take great pride in carrying and using my pocket watch every day, and wish to continue to do so. I just want to make sure that I'm not wearing out my Elgin by using it in such a manner, and will replace it with something else, if that would be best. Thanks, very much, for your thoughts and suggestions, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Jerry Matthews]

Good afternoon from England, Doc.

I suspect the answers you get to your question will be based largely on opinion, so here is my opinion for what it is worth.

You are not going to wear your Elgin out. As long as you have it serviced and oiled every 2-3 years, it should go on forever and continue to keep good time. The only disadvantage I can see to carrying it every day is the possibility of loss or accidental damage, but no doubt you safeguard it well.

I have a total of 21 fine old American watches (Elgin, Waltham, Hampden and Illinois) dating from 1876 to 1925. Obviously I don't carry them around every day, but I do wind them every day and choose one to carry with me. I make sure they are serviced and oiled regularly, and I know every one of them will outlast me!

Why don't you have the Waltham serviced, and then alternate carrying it with the Elgin. Like you, I love carrying a pocket watch and it is a good feeling to choose a different one to take with me each day.

Regards, Jerry

[Kent]

Doc Mark:

I agree with Jerry. You're not going to wear your watch out if you have it serviced every 2-3 years. You may wear the case, but the case can be protected by keeping it in a suede or flannel pouch, inside of your watch pocket.

Also, there are very short leather "links" available that are intended to be used between the watch chain's swivel and the case bow. This prevents the bow from becoming worn by the swivel.

If you're still concerned and want to use an "industructable" watch, I do have a suggestion. As Doug Sinclar has mentioned recently on another thread, I've been carrying a Hamilton 992B on a daily basis for over 25 years. I have it serviced every two years and, since the case was already showing brass when I first got it, I don't worry about it. I suggest that you get one in a Hamilton No. 15 stainless steel case. With proper care, it will last forever and if something breaks, parts are readily available.

Good luck,

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Jerry and Kent,

Thank you both, very much, for your thoughts and suggestions! I feel better about continuing to carry my Elgin, and will have it serviced and oiled, every couple of years. Eventually, I will take my Waltham to our outstanding watch repairman, and have it, too, serviced. Then, as Jerry has suggested, I could swap between the two. Kent, I appreciate your suggestion about getting a Hamilton 992B. I will start checking out that possibility, and see what turns up. As I'm not in a massive hurry, now that I feel better about not wearing out my Elgin, I will take my time, and find a nice Hamilton. That will make three "modern" pocket watches that I will own, along with my much-loved fusees!

Thanks, again, Gentlemen! Much appreciated! Jerry, may you have a fun adventure, there in England, and a safe and sound return home! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Kent,

I have been casting about, looking at Hamilton 992B pocketwatches, and I had a few questions, if I may? From what I'm seeing, it would appear that the 992B I should seek should be adjusted for temperature and six positions; be double rollered (don't know what that is); and have 21 jewels. Am I right? Also, in what sizes were such watches available, and what would be a good size for daily use? As you suggested, I did find one 992B which was housed in a stainless steel case, which is interesting. The silverode case in which my Elgin resides, has offered fine service and protection to my watch, as I'm sure, would a silver case, or even gold-filled. So, I guess the case is not that important, as long as the watch is in outstanding shape and will give a lifetime of use. Thanks for your further thoughts on this. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Don Dahlberg]

The Hamilton 992B was 16 size and had 21 jewels. It was adjusted to 6 positions. After years of use and perhaps not the best of care, it would most likely not be adjusted to six positions now. A good service person can bring it back to par.

If a railroad grade watch such as a 992B is a bit pricey for you, you can also look at a number of 17 jeweled watches such as the Hamilton 974 or 972. Illinois produced some great 17 jewel three and four position watches. When properly serviced, they can keep just as good time for less than half the cost.

Base metal cases like stainless steel, or silveroid hold up very well. Solid silver will too, because it is just silver under the silver. Silver and silveroid are only found on very old watches. Gold filled cases have the problem that the gold wears off on surfaces exposed to friction. That is why Kent said he had a gold filled case that already showed brass when he pruchased it. That way he did not have to feel guilty about wearing it down to the brass, because it already had been done.

Don

[M. Cross]

You being an Elgin man, you might want to consider looking at an Elgin BWR 571. They're not as expensive to obtain as a 992, but are par with them as time keepers as they were Elgin's competetive offering against Hamilton, and parts readily available.

Another one to consider would be any Hamilton 974. A tough watch with parts available out the wazoo, and accurate to boot!

Regards! Michaelson

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, All,

Many thanks, for all the suggestions on a daily carry watch! I have been looking around on fleabay, and see there are tons of BW Raymond, Hamilton 992 and 992B, and Waltham watches, like the Vanguard, available. I think most any of those would do the trick, when combined with my current 1871 Elgin and 1909 Waltham M1883. Now, to decide which one to get!! That is the rub, of course! Looks like there is a healthy market for all of those, and that the supply of them is vast. Thanks, again, Friends, for your suggestions. I'll let you know which one (or two) I end up adding to my collection of daily carry watches. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, to decide which one to get!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's easy, at least one of each!

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Kent,

I like the way you're thinking!!! :wink: :cool: I imagine, over time, I will end up with a representative sample of each of those watches! See what you guys did to me? I came here, only interested in verge fusee watches, and now look what's happened!!! :biggrin: Thanks, again, for all the help and suggestions! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Evening, Friends,

I have another question about everyday carry watches, if I may. In my casting about, I've noticed that most of the watches I'm seeking seem to have screwed-in gold settings for their jewels, which I think is classy. However, I looked at a couple of Waltham watches, a Vanguard in particular, that seemed to have pressed-fit jewel settings. I am seeing it right? I note no screws holding in the jewel settings in the Vanguard watches that I've seen, and also on several other Walthams. Does this matter, or is it of no importance? And, either way, why? Thanks, in advance, Friends. Take care and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Good Evening, Friends,

Well, today I took another step towards gathering a small collection of more modern watches than my fusees. I took a chance and got a 1925 B.W. Raymond Elgin. It has 21 jewels, a gold train, gold jewel settings, and is housed in a 14K goldfilled Keystone case, which appears to be in very good condition. It should make a good everyday carry watch. When it arrives, I will give it the once over, and take some photos, which I will post here. If it is everything that I hope it will be, then I'll next see about obtaining a similar Waltham and also a nice Hamilton. See what you guys have done??!! :biggrin: :wink: Thanks, again, for all the suggestions, and I'll let you see what the Elgin looks like after I receive it. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[M. Cross]

Good choice. BWR's are VERY nice carry watches, and parts are plentiful should you ever require repair in the future.

NICE job!
:smile:
Regards! Mark

[Wes]

I just repaired an Elgin BW Raymond 571 (ca 1947) that had been sitting around for years. Needed a staff, balance jewel, click spring, cleaning etc. It has been keeping nearly perfect time since Saturday when I worked on it.
These are some good watches, and part are still available.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Mark, Wes, and All,

Thanks, Guys! I'm excited about finding this one, and look forward to receiving it. It's always somewhat of a crap shoot when you buy a watch without first having had it in your hands. This is doubly so when, like me, you don't know that much about certain watches. But, I'm hoping I made a good choice, and will let you know when my BWR arrives. Thanks, again, Guys. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Don Dahlberg]

Doc Mark,

Several days ago you asked about the different ways that jeweles are attached to the plates.

The first method is burnished into the plate. This is the hardest to replace in that most watchmakers have not learned how to burnish in jewels. It is also hard to find jewels with the right inside diameter and outside diameter that were designed to be burnished. These jewels have tapered and beveled sides so that the brass can conform around them and hold them in.

The second is burnished jewels in a setting. These are usually the easiest to replace for a common model. You need only remove the screws, push the old setting out, push a new setting in and put back the screws. This is fine as long as you can find the proper jewel in a setting. This is easy for a common model, because there are many parts movements out there or collections of NOS bushings. If you cannot find such a jewel in a setting (for rarer models), then you can make a setting and burnish a jewel into it. This is as difficult as burnishing a jewel into the plate itself. Another problem accures when you have a gold setting. It is easier to find jewels in brass settings that will fit, but it will not look right. For example, many jewels and settings in a common Hamilton 974 will fit into a 992, but the 992 had gold settings, while the 974 had brass settings. I have no problems with this since one can easily replace the setting at a later time with a gold setting once one is found.

Finally there are friction jewels. They are just pushed into a hole in the plate. You need some special equipment to do this, but it is easy find and may already be part of a good staking set. The jewels are easily purchased new. Newer watches (since say 1940) used friction jewels.

You can repair a burnished jewel using a friction jewel by boring a large hole and pushing in a friction jewel. This can be done to either a plate or a setting. I and others do not support this approach. There is nothing wrong functionally, but it is not original and it cannot be reversed. I guess if you put a friction jewel in a setting, you could replace the setting at a later time with no harm.

With high end earlier watches you will have burnished jewels in a setting in at least the bridges. In high end newer watches, you will have friction jewels. Both are easily replaced.

Don

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Don,

Wow! Thanks, very much, for that outstanding information! Just as it's been in my Living History hobby, the more I learn about watches, the more I find there is still left to learn!! That's why, no matter how much I learn about ANY subject, I will never consider myself to be an expert! Too much to learn in this world, and too little time to learn it. The more you dig for information, the more information you will need to learn. Again, thanks, Don, for your time and your knowledge, and for sharing both with me! Much appreciated! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Tom Huber]

Doc Mark, Your BWR, being c 1925 is probably a grade 478, and might be in a model 39 case. I have one from c 1924, and it is a great carry watch.

Tom

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Tom,

Do you have photos of your BWR that you could post here, please? I have no way of knowing, other than the "stare and compare" method, which grade my BWR will be. But, when I receive it, I'll take and post some photos, and hope that someone like yourself can educate me as to which grade the watch is. I'm excited about having found it, but it also makes me want to get a few others, of different makes! Shucks! It was easier when I was only interested in verge fusees!! :wink: Thanks, very much, for your note, and I'll look forward to seeing your own BWR, if that is possible. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Wes]

Here is a grade 478 circa 1925, that I believe had been recased:
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/elgin/elgin_28614435a_s.jpg (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/elgin/elgin_28614435a.jpg)
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/elgin/elgin_28614435d_s.jpg (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/elgin/elgin_28614435d.jpg)

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Wes,

Outstanding photo! The movement appears identical to that of the BWR I'm awaiting! Very nice, and thanks for the help. Mine is in a somewhat different case, which appears to me to be similar to style #40, in the Cooksey, Shugart book, page 190. The dial on mine looks very similar to the far left example, page 196, of that same guide. I was somewhat "taken" by the way the minute numerals were added to that dial. Guess it's whatever blows up your skirt, eh? :wink: Thanks, again, Wes! Much appreciated! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Wes]

Hey Mark,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I was somewhat "taken" by the way the minute numerals were added to that dial. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What year is the book you are using?
P 190 shows 12s Elgin stuff; while page 196 shows grade table information of in the 2005 and 2006 books.
Are you referring to a Montgomery Dial? Those are certainly very desireable.
Thanks!

[Doc Mark]

HI, Wes,

Sorry, the book I'm using is a few years old. Mine is from 2003. I bought a few of them, back when I first got into fusees, and found out that the info didn't change that much, from year to year. Guess it's about time to buy the newest edition, though.

Yes, the dial on my BWR is supposed to be a Montgomery Dial. It just looked better, to me, than the dials on the other BWR's that were for sale, so I got that one. Thanks, again! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Wes]

Mark,
Okay, I just found it in my old book. Sometimes I give these old ones away, but I still had "the red book". :smile:
In the last 2 books (2005 and 2006) case #40 is on page 194 and the dial is on page 200.
I have hear the dial in the book referred to as a "Half Montgomery" as opposed to the "Full Montgomery". The Full Monty is pictured here:
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/hamil/hamil_1048905c_s.jpg (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/hamil/hamil_1048905c.jpg)
Note the 6 in the seconds bit and it is double sunk.

Would love to see a photo of the watch you are getting. Are there photos of it online?

Thanks!

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Wes,

The seller sent notice that my watch shipped out today. I should have it in 2-3 days, and will take good photos of it at that time, and post them here. I'm eager to get it, and excited to see if it is as nice as I hope, or is a "pig in a poke"!! Thanks for asking about the photos, and I'll post them as soon as I receive the watch. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Wes, and All,

My "new" BWR arrived today, safe and sound! I must say, it is not completely perfect. But, it is OUTSTANDING, nonetheless, and as close to "perfect" as I have any right to expect!!

I have wound it, and will report on it's timekeeping abilities. It appears in very good condition, though there is one hairline on the dial, which is as Wes thought, a full Montgomery dial. The white gold case is marked on the inside:

B.W. Raymond
Model
Keystone
Watch Case
(some stampings are found here, which include a shield, and a pair of scales)
J. Boss
14K
Gold Filled
7742423

There are a few very faint scratches on the case, which shows that it has been used, but absolutely no brassing. The case is, to my eye, very lovely, and I'm extremely happy with my purchase!! For buying what could have turned out to be a "pig in a poke", I could not be more happy! Before I use this watch, too much, I will take it down to my watchrepairman, and have it cleaned and oiled. I believe that it will offer many, many years of faithful and accurate service! Thank you, Wes, and everyone else, for your helpful suggestions and advice. I will post some photos very soon. Until then, take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

So what's the movement serial number?

[Wes]

WoW! I didn't realize is was in a white gold filled case!

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Guys,

Kent the movement serial number is:

28436862

I believe that dates it to 1925.

Wes, yes, the case appears to be white gold filled, to me. My wedding band is 14K white gold and this watch case is identical in color. I just found something in the 2003 vol. of the Cooksey-Shugart book. On page 183, down at the bottom of the page, are drawings of three cases. Mine looks like the one on the left, which also looks like case style #40 on page 190, top left. Under the three cases on page 183, the following is found:

"14K White or Green Gold Filled Specially Designed Screw Case; Price $35.30; AD Oct. 15th, 1926 and Aug. 15th, 1927; B.W. Raymond Movement, 16 size, 21 jewels, 8 adjustments, 5 of them position, supplied with Montgomery Dial if desired."

That looks like it describes my new watch, which has a Montgomery dial, though my movement is engraved, "adjusted 5 positions". No mention of the other 3 adjustments. Though I am no expert, I would hazard a guess that this watch and case are original to one another. There are no other screw marks on the inside of the case, to show that another movement was ever in this case. I could be wrong, of course, but feel fairly sure that I'm guessing correctly.

I will take and post photos in the next few days. I could not be more happy with this watch, though. I think it's quite lovely, and am very excited to have found it. I know we don't discuss value, but for the $275 I paid for it, I truly believe it was a fine value! Thanks, again, Lads, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

Doc Mark:

By looking up the serial number on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin website (see below) I find that it is a grade No. 472. Yes, it was built in about 1925, possibly a tad later. More importantly, all grade No. 472 watches were fitted with an Invar Balance, a fact that was always noted on the dial, in the bottom portion of the seconds bit. See the November 1925 ad on Wayne's Elgin website (<span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.org/scans/elgin_ads/1925/m_index.html</span>).
<span class="ev_code_blue">To view, go to the </span><span class="ev_code_brown">Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page</span> <span class="ev_code_blue">at</span> <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.com</span>, <span class="ev_code_blue">then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on </span>'Go'.
Even the Montgomery dials on the No. 472 watches had the "Invar Balance" marking in the seconds bit. See the Railroaders' Corner column "16-Size BWR Part 2: 21 & 23 Jewel" in the April 2002 NAWCC Bulletin.

Elgin's use of the phase "8 Adjustments" began much later than this watch, possibly as late as 1946 or 1947 when the B.W. Raymond grade No. 571 was introduced. That would be five to position, isochronism, heat and cold. However, there is at least one ad in the late 1940s or early 1950s that claims eight adjustments, six to position. Presumably the other two were isochronism and temperature.

Not having Shugart, Gilbert & Engle's book available at the moment, I can't tell for sure, but your case may be the one pictured in the November 1925 ad. If so, it seems like you have a very nice watch and in the condition you described (with the correct "Invar Balance" dial), you did O.K.

Enjoy your watch,
Kent

P.S. Basic information about an Elgin watch, including its approximate date of manufacture, can be obtained by using the serial number on the movement (the "works"), not the case, to look the watch up on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin watch web site at <span class="ev_code_brown">elginwatches.com</span>. Choose "Elgin Databases" on the left-hand side of the page and then "Serial Number Lookup." Be sure to type in the serial number without any spaces or commas. If you enter a space and then "v=13" after the serial number, notes on surviving examples will be included in the ensuing report. These were as reported to Wayne, or as he found them on them internet. After you look up your watch, choose "Watch Codes" from the menu in the left-hand side of the page, that's where the abbreviations are explained. There is a lot of other good information on the site on Elgin watches and on pocket watches in general. Its well worth a couple of hours to go through different sections.

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Kent,

Well, thank you, very much, for all that outstanding information! I will definitely spend some time on Wayne's web page, and see what I can learn.

One wrench to throw in the works, however, is that my Montgomery dial does NOT have anything within the seconds bit, except the #6, and the regular seconds numerals and tick marks. So, my theory about this dial being original might be wrong. No matter, really, as I'm really happy with the watch, and think it will work out well for an everyday carry watch. I do need to get it cleaned, oiled and serviced, as I see that it is running just a bit fast, right now. So, when it runs down from this winding, I will not wind it again, until I've had it serviced, just to be safe.

Thanks, again, for all your information, Kent. Much appreciated! I got all my information from No. 23, Complete Price Guide to Watches, 2003. I will look forward to spending some time on Wayne's web page, and learning much more about my watch, and other Elgin watches, too. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Kent,

I have a question regarding the Invar Balance, and it's inclusion in the Grade 472 pocket watches. While perusing the tons of great info on Wayne's web page, I noted a 1925 ad, which seems to say to me that the Invar Balance was an option, and not included in all Grade 472 BWR watches. It basically states that the BWR was "available" with the Invar Balance. Am I off base here, or missing something important? So much to learn! It's fun, though, and I do appreciate your sending the link to me. What do you think about my question, please? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

Doc Mark:

The ads (1924-1925, etc.) don't quite say what you wrote. True, the Invar Balance was an "option." However, the ads make no mention of the grade numbers. All grade No. 472 watches were fitted with an Invar Balance. That was the differentiating feature between the grade No. 472 and grade No. 478. At that time, if one wanted the 21-jewel, 16-size, B.W. Raymond with a conventional, bi-metalic balance, one received the grade No. 478.

To anticipate a question, yes all grade No. 478 watches were fitted with the conventional, bi-metalic balance. Oh yes, the No. 478 outsold the No. 472 by a factor of about 9 to 1. But, with over 20,000 made, the No. 472 is a common watch.

[Doc Mark]

Evening, Kent,

Sorry, I didn't mean to misquote the ads. A case of assuming too much, and we all know what happens when we "assume"! :wink: So, I guess, what I was asking was, if my watch dial does not have the proper Invar Balance marking, does that mean that it is not a Grade 472? Or, does it mean that the dial is not original to the watch? Or, maybe both? Once my watch runs down, and the balance wheel stops, can I tell if it is a conventional balance, or an Invar Balance, by looking at it? And if so, for what should I be looking? Sorry for all the questions, but I very much appreciate your help in all this. I have actually had quite a bit of fun today, playing with this new watch, and checking out the information you sent along! In the end, that's what it's all about, I would guess. Thanks, again, and I'll look forward to any comments you can offer. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

Doc Mark:

The serial number identifies your watch as a grade No. 472. All No. 472s were fitted with dials noting the "Invar Balance." I'm sorry to have to say that your dial is not original to your watch.

The Invar balance can be identified by the relatively long portion of balance rim extending beyond the balance arm. Please look at the comparitve pictures in the above mentioned column of the 21 & 23 jewel B. W. Raymond watches. I believe that it also shows an example of a Montgomery dial marked "Invar Balance," but I don't remember.

Back issues of the NAWCC Bulletin are available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm).

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Kent,

Ok, that makes sense to me now, and is sort of what I was figuring. Nice to know that my watch is a 472, for certain, and that it does have the Invar Balance. Regarding the Montgomery Dial not being original to the watch, that does not bother me, one bit. One of the main reasons that I chose to buy this particular watch, over all the others I perused, is that I loved the dial and the case. To me, they just looked more classy than anything else that I had found. All in all, my watch should benefit, in it's timekeeping abilities, from having the Invar Balance, and as I plan to use this watch as an everyday carry piece, that is more important to me than having a completely original dial. Just like with my fusee watches, things get changed over the years, when something breaks, and needs replacement. It's possible that that's what happened to this BWR. Or, someone might have "switched" the Mongomery Dial with it's Invar Balance markings, for the Mongomery Dial that resides on this watch now. I will post photos soon, and then you can see, exactly, what I have in hand. Again, to me, it's a gem of a watch, and I'm pleased and proud to own and use it, original dial, or not!! Thanks, very much, Kent, and everyone, for helping me learn more about my watch, and watches in general. That's why I joined the NAWCC three years ago, and I have not been disappointed in that regard! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Tom Huber]

Hi Doc Mark, I was going to post pix of my watch, but you have found out much more than my pix could have shown you. I wasn't ignoring you. Enjoy your watch. It is a nice one.

Tom

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

Well, I promised to take and post some photos of my new BWR, and today I got the chance to do that. By the way, Tom, not to worry about not posting photos of yours. We all get busy, and I appreciate your note.

So, without further ado, here is what I bought. This first photo is of the complete watch, front view.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/MRutledge/DSCN1829.jpg

Next, here's a view of the Montgomery Dial. I note that it is missing the "Invar Balance" marking, which may mean that this dial is not original to the Grade 472 movement.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/MRutledge/DSCN1830.jpg

This side view shows the nice case decoration.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/MRutledge/DSCN1831.jpg

Next, is a photo of the movement. Needs cleaning, that's for sure, but I think it's nicely done.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/MRutledge/DSCN1835.jpg

And, here's a close-up of the movement. For Kent, and any others that know such things, can you tell if the balance is, indeed, an Ivar Balance?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/MRutledge/DSCN1834.jpg

This last photo shows the bow, stem, and, again, the lovely case decoration.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/MRutledge/DSCN1837.jpg

So, that's my new watch, Friends! I'm very happy with it, though it does need a good cleaning, oiling and service. In less than 36 hours, it gained 10 minutes!!!! Yikes!! I am not familiar with adjusting the swan neck regulators on watches like these. Any suggestions would be gratefully accepted! However, it's probably best for me to get it serviced, before messing with time regulaton. Thanks, once more, to all who took the time to help on in my education, with your outstanding suggestions and comments!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Timm]

Hello Doc Mark,

Nice watch! Is the micrometric regulator spring broken? Perhaps this is something I've never seen. I would of thought that the "whip" spring would have continued around in a graceful curve to contact the regulator index (correct terminology?).

Great pictures.

Tim.

[Wes]

Good eye Tim.
It should look like this:
http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/elgin/elgin_28614435x.jpg (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/sale/elgin/elgin_28614435x.jpg)

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Tim,

I'm afraid I have no idea. This is all new to me, and the only spring I can actually see, is the balance spring, which does expand and contract, very slightly, when the watch is running. I note that at the top of this spring, there is a single bit of spring that is on top of the coil, and it does head over towards the regulator. Other than that, I can be of no help, poor ignorant wretch that I am!! If anyone knows the answer to Tim's question, please jump in. I would imagine that my watch repairman will know, right away, if something is amiss. Tim, if the spring, about which you wrote, was broken, would that make this watch run so very fast as it is? Food for thought!

Thanks, for your comment about the photos! I assure you, it is the camera, and not my "skill" that resulted in any photos I take! :wink: Thanks, again, for your comments and question. I hope someone can add further to this, and possibly answer your question. If not, then I will rely on my watch repairman to see any problems that might be causing this BWR to run so fast. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Wes,

Ahhh, now I see it! Thanks for the illustrative photo!! So, I do have a problem, and I can now see at least part of what it is. I will not wind my new baby until it's been to the repairman, and I hope and trust that he can put it right. Thanks, for the tips, Guys! much appreciated! This does not dampen my enthusiasm for my new BWR, though. I usually take any and all of my fusee watches to my watch repairman, and he checks them out and repairs anything that is amiss. So shall it be with this BWR. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Wes]

Hey Doc,
To me the nices thing abuot yor watch is the case. White gold and it appears ORIGINAL to that watch from the movement photo.
The regulator spring should be no sweat. Might even find a NOS one if you are lucky!
Still a good find so enjoy it!

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Wes,

Many thanks! Yes, I, too, like the white gold case, and think it's very classy. From checking out the case with a loop, I cannot see any other marks that would indicate that another movement has ever been in this case. No matter, though, as I like it very much, and can hardly wait to get it repaired. If my watch repairman does not feel comfortable replacing the needed spring, I will check back with you for recommendations of someone trustworthy to do it. But, I believe that Tom can take care of it. Thanks, again, for your enthusiasm and support! You, Kent, and a few of the other guys, are the ones that talked me into this BWR, and I'm sure a few other watches, in the future!! Thanks!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Kent]

Hi Doc Mark:

A very nice watch!

One look at the balance and the length of rim exending beyond the balance arm confirms that it is indeed a No. 472.

Good luck,

[M. Cross]

Holy Smokes, Mark! You hit a home run your very first time at bat!!!! :eek:

CONGRATULATIONS!!! :smile:

HIGH regards!

Mark

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Mark,

Thank you, very much, Sir! Don't know if I "hit a home run", but at least I made contact with the ball!! :cool: As with the rest of the guys that encouraged me to stick my toe into the horological waters, and expand my interest past just fusees, I must send you my thanks! Even though my new BWR is in need of a little help, I'm still really jazzed about finding this particular watch!! Thanks, again, and I'll let you know what it takes to get this one up and running, as it is supposed to run. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[M. Cross]

I would not be to concerned at all about getting it up to snuff. Elgin BWR parts are everywhere, and from all reports, simple to maintain and refurbish.
I am carrying an 18s Elgin grade 228 hunter cased watch from 1899, and it's keeping absolute perfect time, and it's no where NEAR being a railroad grade. Yours IS the Elgin railroad grade, so you have an absolute jem there.
Once it's given it's general servicing, you'll have a solid daily carry watch, and anything else you buy will just be gravy and goodies to put in a collection.

Like I said, a homerun from the get-go. WELL done!

HIGH regards! Mark

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Friends,

Well, the die has been cast, and I've taken the bit..... !

With the recent success in finding my first BWR pocket watch, I've now been looking for a good Hamilton 992B! I have seen many of them, but am now wary, after my first lucky find, and don't wish to make a mistake. So far, it seems that most of the watchs I've seen, have been recased, and many of them have had new dials installed, too. Do you have any suggestions, or tips, that would help me find a very nice 992B? Also, what was the difference between the 992B and it's predecessor, the 992? Are both worth having, or is it better to get the 992B over the 992? I also found a few nice 940's, but really can't afford to "buy them all"!

One 992B that I found on Sunday, was being offered by a fellow NAWCC member, who had his goodies laid out at a swap meet. His watch, in particular, seemed very nice to me, and it had what he said was it's original case. This case was a swing-out design, was stamped with the Hamilton name, and looked to be in very good condition. The movement seemed crisp, and was ticking away, with alacrity. I am going to keep in touch with this gentleman, and may end up buying his watch, if it is still available when I'm ready to buy. He is selling off many of the duplicates that he has in his collection, and does not actually have a shop. He works on his own watches, but not on any others. I am rather intriqued by supporting this fellow, and will let you all know how it turns out. Thanks, once again, for your comments and suggestions, in this new turn in the road! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[M. Cross]

Hi Mark! Ironically, I just obtained my first 992B myself this week in a model 15 stainless steel case, and am LOVING it. (and this from a hard core, Elgin carrying member of the club! :eek:)
I'm very impressed with mine, and believe you're on the right track in dealing with a fellow NAWCC member. I got mine from a fellow member, and am absolutely tickled to death.
Stay the course. Sounds like you're about to hit yet another homerun!

High regards! Mark

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Mark,

Thanks for your note. Congratulations on securing your own 992B!! How about some photos of yours? I'd love to see it, and the ss case, too, if possible. Like you, I've enjoyed dealing with fellow NAWCC members before, and I just got a good feeling from this fellow when we talked. I felt like he was just "talking watches", and not trying to foist something off on me, like every other person that offered watches at that swap meet, and there were lots of them!! So far, in my dealings with NAWCC members, I have been 100% satisfied, so that's definitely something to consider. I'll look forward to seeing your new 992B, if you can post some photos of it! Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One 992B that I found on Sunday, ... he said was it's original case. ... a swing-out design, ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
*sigh*

I'm sorry to say that if its a 992B movement in a swing out Hamilton case, the case is not original to the movement.

[Doc Mark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kent:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One 992B that I found on Sunday, ... he said was it's original case. ... a swing-out design, ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
*sigh*

I'm sorry to say that if its a 992B movement in a swing out Hamilton case, the case is not original to the movement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Kent,

No need to sigh, my Friend! Hey, I'm here to learn, and you've been an outstanding teacher, every step of the way! Can you give me an idea of what sort of case would have been original to the 992B? I guess I should check out my books a little more, but additionally, I'd very much appreciate what you have to say on the subject. In regards to a fellow NAWCC member being "wrong" about what case would have been original to his watch, I really don't have too much of a problem with that. Judging from our conversation, I'd say he made an honest mistake. Believe me, the other guys SEEMED like salesmen/crooks, right from the get-go!!! So, dealing with this fellow was a pleasure, after having talked to the other guys!

Many of my fusee watches do not have their original cases, and that is just a fact of life. Yes, it's outstanding when you can get that occasional watch that is completely original. But, I guess, as long as everything is in fine fettle, and matches in design, I think that is usually quite satisfactory. I'll look forward hearing whatever you can tell me to help guide me in the right direction. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

Doc Mark:

The 992B was furnished in Hamilton cases numbered 2, 11 and higher. Here are a few examples:

No. 11 - 1941 (http://static.flickr.com/45/143730303_7c9a6b70e1_o.jpg)
No. 2 - 1946 (http://static.flickr.com/46/143730304_34f0654672_b.jpg)
No. 15 - 1950 (http://static.flickr.com/49/143730306_249ae2457e_b.jpg) (catalog says 992, but it means 992B)
No. 16 - 1957 (http://static.flickr.com/50/143730307_f02adb5532_o.jpg)

You should notice that these cases look a lot more modern than the swing-out case your movement is in. A Find search for "992B Cases" by "Don Dahlberg" should reveal pictures and much more complete detail.

[Doc Mark]

Evening, Kent,

As usual, you have sent along a veritable ton of outstanding information!! Many thanks to you, and also to Don, who gathered much of the work with which you supplied me. I see there's much on the plate, in order to learn what's necessary to be able to make a reasonable guess about a movement being in an original Hamilton case! Thanks, again, for the great leads, and for all your help! Much appreciated, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... Don, who gathered much of the work with which you supplied me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Welllllllll....

The 1941 Time Book was sent to Ed and I by a retired railroader in the Pacific northwest.

The 1946 ad came from my personal collection of railroad brotherhood journals (whcih have long since been donated to the NAWCC Library).

As noted, Don furnished the 1950 catalog sheet.

The 1957 catalog sheet was received about 20 years ago from Eileen Doudna the then NAWCC Librarian.

........... Nevertheless, Don and Terry Hall (along with a few others whose posts you'll find when you research the subject) are the experts on Hamilton cases.

[Robert Sweet]

Hello Doc,
Below is a 992B factory case chart that I assembled using various Hamilton catalogs sheets.

As you will notice, the model "A" is displayed twice, first with pendant "shoulders" and secondly without. The same is true with the model #11, but no image was available without "shoulders".

The chart does not include "substitute" cases used due to shortages and cases not yet identified, such as the model "B" and "C".

The model #2 was introduced in 1926 and holds the distinction of being used with the 950, 950E, 950B, 992, 992E, and 992B and was offered in 14k wgf, 14 ggf, 10k yellow and 14k solid gold.

Thanks to Don Dahlberg for providing most of the catalogs sheets.

Robert

http://static.flickr.com/53/143747476_8c7bbc69d4_b.jpg

[Veritas]

Doc mark, Nice watch and in a nice case too.I have one Raymond and i love it too.It is a 16 sz the one i have, not sure of grade.Enjoy your watch. :smile:

[peg leg]

I learn something new every day since I began collecting. The other day I found a US watch maker to work on a verge. He explained his back log, his staffs skill sets and he had one guy that could do a verge and agreed to help. I informed him I have a collection of serviced early key winds and that I even carry a key wind. His response to me.........get a 992.

I just hope Wes Boger does not get run over by a milk truck as the US repair market is rail road driven. That is a nice watch Doc Mark. Henry B. loves Hamiltons (I'm hung up on Rockfords).

Funny thing is my rail road watches I use for sniping and don't run them often. This watch I may have to adjust the time every couple of weeks (plus one minute). The hunter case is silveroid. I also carry a verge from 1802 every now and then. I may have to get a 992 to see if it can time with 21 jewel Rockford (for my curiosity).

Keith R...

http://static.flickr.com/54/142176923_7706f526c0.jpg

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Friends,

Well, the fine information just keeps rolling in! Many thanks to Robert, and everyone, for the continuing education! Robert, I have made a copy of the case info you sent, and after printing it out, will be able to use it to better understand what I'm seeing, when I check out more 992B pocket watches. Many thanks! Thanks, too, to everyone who has spent the time and effort to compile such fine information, and to all those of you who have shared it here! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Kent]

Robert:

Do you mind if I copy that picture of the Hamilton 992B cases and use it (with credit to you as well as the NAWCC Library)?

Thanks,

[Robert Sweet]

Hello Kent,
You are more than welcome to use any information that I have posted in the past or will post in the future.

I can never repay you and many others for all the information that has been shared on this message board and others since becoming a NAWCC member just over 1 year ago.

Robert