Keil & Hettich Pocket Watch

[bbwatch]

I'm trying to find the maker of a nice ~ 16s watch . The watch is marked "Keil & Hettich" "Chicago" on the movement (SN 90176) and Keil & Hettich on the dial. It is stamped Switzerland on the lower plate. I can't find any other marks on it. I'm attaching some pix to help. The case is American Watch Case Co , 14K yellow gold. Anyone know the K & H company in Chicago?

[bbwatch]

I'm trying to find the maker of a nice ~ 16s watch . The watch is marked "Keil & Hettich" "Chicago" on the movement (SN 90176) and Keil & Hettich on the dial. It is stamped Switzerland on the lower plate. I can't find any other marks on it. I'm attaching some pix to help. The case is American Watch Case Co , 14K yellow gold. Anyone know the K & H company in Chicago?

[bbwatch]

More detail of the movement.

[bbwatch]

Inside of the case.

[bbwatch]

Overall pic of movement.

[bbwatch]

I forgot to add that the dial side center hole was not jeweled. Looks like 16J total. The dial is a pop-on (no feet) and has "M & M" on the underside.

Barry B

[doug sinclair]

Barry,

That sure looks like Longines, or possibly Aggasiz to me. Good looking watch, and it runs!

[Kent]

Barry:

Lacking any indication of adjustment, this looks like a medium grade, generic movement, of the style that was finished by a number of different Swiss shops. The indications of quality are the 16th jewel in the upper center bridge and the snail-style regulator. A higher grade watch may have been fitted with a double-sunk dial, but this would be only a general indication.

It probably has a temperature compensated balance, but we can't tell from the pictures since the watch is running. When it stops, look for two cuts in the balance, 180 degrees apart, near the arms. Also look to see if the rim is of bi-metalic construction.

This is just the sort of movement typically found in solid gold cases, not too high of a grade, since so much of the buyers budget went into the case.

If I had to guess the age, I'd put it at being built sometime around 1890-1905.

Good luck,
Kent

[Julian Smith]

If you look on the bottom of page 470 of Shugart #24, there is your movement.This one is made by Alpina.The regulator is different but the rest is very close.
J Smith

[Kent]

That the regulator is different is a minor issue. Its more significant to me that the barrel bridge appears to be a lot wider on the movement on page 470. Also, the balance cock is a different shape.

[bbwatch]

Kent, Doug & Julian,

Thanks for the quick response. Kent - it is a temperature compensated balance. Sorry, I forgot to indicate that. Anyone ever heard of Keil & Hettich (jeweler in Chicago, probably)?

Barry B

[Kent]

Barry:

A Google search for "Keil & Hettich" turned up this Neat 1897 Picture (http://www.peninsulators.org/Prism/Luxfer/Handbook/page122.html) of their store on State St. in Chicago. Unfortunately, that's all that showed up.

Kent

[bbwatch]

Kent, thanks.

Barry

[rg]

Be sure to click on the thumbnail on the right side of the large page. Then blow it up. In that big picture you will see a showcase full of pocket watches!

[Dr. Jon]

Three featurs suggest Agassiz
1) the regulator
2) The click spring on the Mainspring wheel
3) The way the word Adjusted is wrapped in an arc.

I agree ebauch is by Alpina.

Furthermore, Agassiz did a lot of private label business in the US.

Serial number by my data base dates it, if Agassiz to about 1900, which looks right and it when US private label business was very significant.

[Zack Bortolot]

I have an identical watch which was sold by Hyman, Berg and Co. out of Detroit (the serial number on mine is 91903). About a year ago, a watch with the same movement but clearly marked Agassiz was sold on eBay, and I have attached the photo to this e-mail (hopefully the seller doesn't mind). I have to say that I think that the quality of the watch is really head and shoulders above what I would consider to be a medium grade watch of the period (7 - 15 jewels, roughly finished).

Zack

[Zack Bortolot]

Here is a close up picture of the signature.

[bbwatch]

Zack & Dr Jon - I agree, Zack. The movements are identical. Thanks a lot. Agassiz, huh.

Dr Jon - Don't know much about Alpina. Where could I go to find out more?

I occasionally find a Swiss PW that strikes my fancy and almost never can find the same movement in Cooksey & Shugart. Was the American PW system easier, or just better documented? Or is it just that many of us in America don't have easy access to the reference material?

Thanks a lot guys for the help.

Barry B

[Kent]

Barry:

The Complete Guide ... by Shugart, Engle & Gilbert is only a guide. There are many, many watches, both U.S. and imported, that it has yet to document. The U.S. companies are better documented, or at least, such documentation on them is available to the public. In addition, U.S. watches receive more attention here in the U.S. Similarly, most European collectors know more about European watches. On top of all that, the Swiss manufacturing system was significantly different that the system here in America.

By the end of the 1880s, almost all American movements were made completely within individual factories. They may still have used Swiss parts, dials, hairsprings, balances, jewels and such, but movements were built up from the stamping of the plates to the finished product. These products are mostly unique to individual companies (or their successors).

The Swiss were organized differently. Several firms turned out rough ebauches (rough movements with trains) and many other companies, especially some of the better houses, bought these and <span class="ev_code_blue">finished</span> them with their own escapements, balances and either their own, or purchased, regulators. The term "<span class="ev_code_blue">finished</span>" refers to polishing, truing up, adjusting and decorative finishing. This is why you see many similar Swiss movements, even with the same regulators, under different manufacturers' names (besides the private labeled watches).

Kent

[Zack Bortolot]

For what it's worth, the best guide I have found so far for identifying Swiss movements is the long out of print Paulson's Master Key. This book includes pictures of a lot of the more common Swiss movements.

Zack

[Dr. Jon]

My initial info on Alpina came from a now removed Web Page. Prichard's Book "Swiss Timepiecemakers 1775 to 1975" has some information on Alpina.

One of their trademarks was a cut of watch movement with the plate and bridge arrangement often seen in Patek, Agassiz, and many others.

The company began in 1883 as a kind of association to rationalize the various parts making operations much as Kent, in his usual manner, has described well.

The Prichard article goes on to mention that Gruen and Hamilton became part of this association, explaining why some Hammy 12 size dials were Swiss.

The book is another valubale reference you can buy reasonably from the NAWCC gift shop or borrow from our Library if you are a member.