Ball 23J Question

[Brian Durham]

Gentlemen;

I have a 23 jewel Ball ORRS watch, serial B 606971. Flip case is Ball model by CWC Co. Movement labeled motor barrel with ORRS gold disk.

This was my Grandfather's watch and he worked for the Erie Railroad Marine Division in New York Harbor.

From reading your forum this is likely a Hamilton-Ball, and I would appreciate confirmation of this.

However, I also have a 21J Ball-Waltham, B249278, whose plate looks idential to this Hamilton. This got me confused and I tried to locate the 23J in the Waltham database without success.

I volunteer as a conductor and engineer at the Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad in Portland Maine and actually use a pocket watch. Our newest piece of equipment is a 1949 diesel-electric locomotive and I try to use a watch appropriate to the period of our stuff (mostly early 1900s).

So far my experience in using old pocket watches is that I am paying more to repair them than to purchase them. One or two days of hopping on and off moving equipment and throwing switches seems to find the weak points in an old watch. My theory is that is a watch should be used and I am not doing anything that was not done a hundred years ago.

Brian

[Brian Durham]

Gentlemen;

I have a 23 jewel Ball ORRS watch, serial B 606971. Flip case is Ball model by CWC Co. Movement labeled motor barrel with ORRS gold disk.

This was my Grandfather's watch and he worked for the Erie Railroad Marine Division in New York Harbor.

From reading your forum this is likely a Hamilton-Ball, and I would appreciate confirmation of this.

However, I also have a 21J Ball-Waltham, B249278, whose plate looks idential to this Hamilton. This got me confused and I tried to locate the 23J in the Waltham database without success.

I volunteer as a conductor and engineer at the Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad in Portland Maine and actually use a pocket watch. Our newest piece of equipment is a 1949 diesel-electric locomotive and I try to use a watch appropriate to the period of our stuff (mostly early 1900s).

So far my experience in using old pocket watches is that I am paying more to repair them than to purchase them. One or two days of hopping on and off moving equipment and throwing switches seems to find the weak points in an old watch. My theory is that is a watch should be used and I am not doing anything that was not done a hundred years ago.

Brian

[Kent]

Hi Brian:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So far my experience in using old pocket watches is that I am paying more to repair them than to purchase them. One or two days of hopping on and off moving equipment and throwing switches seems to find the weak points in an old watch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you need more experience. These watches were used for decades by people performing the same tasks that you are doing, without suffering constant damage to their watches. Well, some were a bit less careful than others.

However, the point is that they were careful with the watches. If you are going about your business carefully, thinking "Safety First" and acting accordingly, as they did, your watch should survive when kept dial inward in a watch pocket. The better overalls, have a watch pocket (possibly a lined pocket) up in the bib portion. With the watch kept there, and with a chain or leather thong from the watch to one of the overall straps, it should be pretty safe.

If you're suffering mostly from broken staffs (one of the commonest problems, and one that the old-timers had to deal with), you might consider getting a Ball grade/caliber 435, 435B or 435C. They were last of the Ball standard grade pocket watches, being Swiss-Made by the Record Watch Co. (http://photos9.flickr.com/15510852_05bbb94939_o.jpg) built starting in 1954. These 21-jewel, 16-size watches were fitted with the Incabloc anti-shock system on the balance staff. The 435C Was Still Being Accepted on the Canadian Pacific Railway (http://photos11.flickr.com/15463358_3a8c738487_o.jpg) (along with a handful of other pocket watches), and elsewhere, in the late 1960s, and in fact, long after that. Their original cases can be somewhat recognized by having a single lever slot, at the 56 minute position. The Ball Official RR Standard grade watches were considered a cut above the run-of-the-mill railroad grade watches (all of which were of a relatively high grade) and are considered to be quite collectable, although the Swiss-built Ball watches are not collected as avidly as the U.S.-built ones. One is almost always available on eBay at a relatively modest cost.

The most important thing to you is the fact that they're just about the only railroad standard pocket watches made with an Incabloc anti-shock system on the balance staff. The 435 and the 435B also have the similar Kif anti-shock mounting on the escape wheel and the pallet fork. This might be just the watch you need to carry in light of the exceedingly rough service you're putting your watches through.

Good luck,

[Brian Durham]

Kent,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Basically, I picked up a couple watches on ebay, wound them, and started using them if they kept good time. My usual trousers do not have a watch pocket so for a while I had the watch in a front pocket with chain. This could cause some shock.

I now have a leather watch case on my belt, or wear overalls and use the top pocket with a leather thong.

I never considered it might be me. I did think maybe it was the electromagnetic field generated by our diesel-electric engine.

In any event, with two watches now back from the shop I'll see what happens next. 19J Illinois and 21J Waltham Crescent Street are my most usual carries. Sometimes a Hamilton 992.

Am I correct that a 23J Ball with serial B 606971 was made by Hamilton? About what year? This is from my Grandfather and I do not use it on the railroad.

Brian

[Harvey Mintz]

Brian -

First, let me answer the question about the watch's manufaturer: my copy of "American Railroad Watches", by George Townsend shows serial # B606971 as a Hamilton 16 size, grade 999 made in (approximately) 1908.

About using RR grade watches on Diesel-electric locomotives: the electric field/magnetism problems caused by this equipment is the reason Hamilton developed the 992E and 950E models in the 1930's, and the reason the 992B and 950B model have non-magnetic hairsprings. Other brands also used non-magnetic materials in some models of their railroad grade watches. The basic problem is that the hairsoring gets magnetized, causing erratic operation of the watch.

It's really easy to test a watch for magetism problems: get yourself a very small compass (about 1/2" across will work nicely), open up the movement while the watch is running and gently place the compass on top of the balance cock directly over the balance.

If the compass needle goes nuts, your watch's hairspring has been magnetized. If it stays almost completely still, the watch has not been magnetized.

Fixing the magnetized hairspring problem is as easy as testing for it - you put the watch into a watch movement degausser. The degausser will basically expose your watch to a strong, alternating magnetic field. You leave it in there for a few seconds, and then remove it slowly (with the degausser still on), and keep it moving slowly away from the deguasser until it's about 6 feet away. At this distance the magnetic field from the degausser is essentially 0, and the hairspring has no residual field.

These degaussers are inexpecsive, and you can perform both the test and the fix in just a few moments at home.

I should add that I'm really glad that someone on a scenic railroad operation is still using a pocket watch. I'm always disappointed when I go on one of these and the crew members are all wearing newish quartz wrist watches (sometimes I'm the only one on the train wearing a RR grade pocket watch :eek: )

[Kent]

Brian:

The Ball 435 series resist the magnetism of diesel-electric locos. If you're really around these (as opposed to steam engines), you shouldn't be using anything but the 'E' and 'B' series Hamiltons that Harvey mentioned, or one of the following makes/grades:

Ball 999B
Ball 435/435B/435C
Elgin B.W. Raymond grade No. 590
Elgin B.W. Raymond grade No. 571
Waltham Vanguard grade No. 1623
Zenith Extra RR 56

Come to think of it, this is almost the same list as the Canadian Pacific put out in 1967 (see above link).

[Brian Durham]

Harvey,

Thank you for confirming the manufacturer and date.

What do you mean by erratic operation? I have my Ball-Waltham 21J in the shop because it will stop when left face up or face down. In a vertical position it keeps exact time.

Will look into investing in a degausser.

It just seemed appropriate to me to use a railroad watch from the period of the equipment we use. Our usual consist has cars dating back to 1904. Our steam engines were built in 1913(2), 1918 and 1924. On most days we use a 1949 diesel.

There are at least two of us who use a railroad approved pocketwatch. A few guys use modern pocket watches. One guy has an old Bulova RR approved wristwatch, but most use a new quartz.

On recollection, both of us who use an old pocketwatch have had watch casualties on the job. While I may be rough on watches, the other guy is about 86 and has younger guys like me (51) do the hard work. He just supervises as conductor in full uniform and deals with passengers.

My suspicion is our watches just needed servicing. Anything mechanical will wear out over time.

Brian

[Brian Durham]

Kent,

You guys are increasing my concern about magnetic fields. I do have a Vanguard 23J made in about 1947 which should do the trick around our diesel - especially when I am the engineeer.

When working as conductor with a steam engine, then I will use one of the older watches.

And, you have me now looking for a Ball 999B or 435/435B/435C. My watchmaker thanks you.

Brian

[Harvey Mintz]

Brian -

"Erratic" basically means unpredictable, although a watch with a magnetized hairspring will probably run fast.

If your watch stops in the dial up or dial down positions, it probably needs a good cleaning.

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You guys are increasing my concern about magnetic fields. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Brian:
There's a reason that the CPR requires anti-magnetic watches!