High jeweled Columbus Watches

[Greg Frauenhoff]

John's post of the beautiful Columbus King mvts reminded me that over 20 years ago, data collected by Randy Chapin was published by Roy Ehrhardt regarding the high jeweled Columbus mvts. Around the same time, Nahum Lewis collected some info on the Columbus Ruby mvts. Since then, little has appeared in print regarding the high jeweled Columbus mvts. So what say we try to rectify this situation? I'm sure that 20 years time has seen even more of these fine timepieces come to light. Enough perhaps that a more accurate estimate of their production can be made.

The following list is from various old Bulletins (mostly data compiled by Lewis), Ehrhardt publications (pictures), personal sightings and the like. There's no "secret" info here. Just a bunch of numbers with a short description. RB=Ruby, CK=Col. King, RK =Raiway King, TK=Time King.

Feel free to append more data. I'm sure that Kent and Ed have lots to add, since they're very good at collecting this kind of data. Any and all info will be appreciated and will be free to the watch collecting public here on this thread.

309229(ad)-RB-21-?
351089-RB-21-Htg
351629-TK-21-Htg
351692-RB-21-?
500007(ad)-TK-21-Htg
500243-TK-21-?
500410-TK-21-?
500441-TK-21-OF
501017-RB-21-?
501033-RB-21-?
501059-RB-21-?
501118-RB-21-?
501157-RB-21-?
501158-RB-21-?
501159-TK-21-?
501205-RB-21-?
501302-RB-21-?
501351-RB-21-?
501381-RB-21-?
501384-RB-21-?
501403-RB-21-OF
501405-RB-21-?
502209-TK-21-OF
502367-CK-21-?
502402(ad)-RK-25-Htg
502818-CK-23-OF
503009-RK-25-OF
503034-CK-25-OF
503073-CK-25-OF
503094-CK-25-OF
503106-RK-25-Htg
503171-CK-25-Htg
503315-RK-23-Htg
503431-RK-23-Htg
503738-CK-21-OF
503872-CK-21-?
504008-CK-23-?
504106-CK-23-OF
504208-CK-23-Htg
504230-CK-23-Htg
504252-CK-23-Htg
504276-CK-23-Htg
504283-CK-23-?
504683-CK-21-Htg
504971-CK-21-OF
505275-CK-21-?
505620-CK-21-Htg (cap jewel on barrel, 22j)
505594-CK-21-?


Greg


[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-06-2001).]

[Greg Frauenhoff]

John's post of the beautiful Columbus King mvts reminded me that over 20 years ago, data collected by Randy Chapin was published by Roy Ehrhardt regarding the high jeweled Columbus mvts. Around the same time, Nahum Lewis collected some info on the Columbus Ruby mvts. Since then, little has appeared in print regarding the high jeweled Columbus mvts. So what say we try to rectify this situation? I'm sure that 20 years time has seen even more of these fine timepieces come to light. Enough perhaps that a more accurate estimate of their production can be made.

The following list is from various old Bulletins (mostly data compiled by Lewis), Ehrhardt publications (pictures), personal sightings and the like. There's no "secret" info here. Just a bunch of numbers with a short description. RB=Ruby, CK=Col. King, RK =Raiway King, TK=Time King.

Feel free to append more data. I'm sure that Kent and Ed have lots to add, since they're very good at collecting this kind of data. Any and all info will be appreciated and will be free to the watch collecting public here on this thread.

309229(ad)-RB-21-?
351089-RB-21-Htg
351629-TK-21-Htg
351692-RB-21-?
500007(ad)-TK-21-Htg
500243-TK-21-?
500410-TK-21-?
500441-TK-21-OF
501017-RB-21-?
501033-RB-21-?
501059-RB-21-?
501118-RB-21-?
501157-RB-21-?
501158-RB-21-?
501159-TK-21-?
501205-RB-21-?
501302-RB-21-?
501351-RB-21-?
501381-RB-21-?
501384-RB-21-?
501403-RB-21-OF
501405-RB-21-?
502209-TK-21-OF
502367-CK-21-?
502402(ad)-RK-25-Htg
502818-CK-23-OF
503009-RK-25-OF
503034-CK-25-OF
503073-CK-25-OF
503094-CK-25-OF
503106-RK-25-Htg
503171-CK-25-Htg
503315-RK-23-Htg
503431-RK-23-Htg
503738-CK-21-OF
503872-CK-21-?
504008-CK-23-?
504106-CK-23-OF
504208-CK-23-Htg
504230-CK-23-Htg
504252-CK-23-Htg
504276-CK-23-Htg
504283-CK-23-?
504683-CK-21-Htg
504971-CK-21-OF
505275-CK-21-?
505620-CK-21-Htg (cap jewel on barrel, 22j)
505594-CK-21-?


Greg


[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Greg Frauenhoff (edited 07-06-2001).]

[Steve Maddox]

Greg,

Excellent idea! The only watch I have at this time that falls in that category is a 23 Jewel Columbus Railway King (hunter). Its serial number is 503431, and pictures of it will be posted shortly, which will be accessible from John's thread that you mentioned above.

Hope to see an updated list soon!



------------------
Steve Maddox
VP, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Rob & Steve,

Thanks for the extra nos. If a Col. collector I know ever gets back from vacation I may be able to post more info, including nos. of some 25 jewelers.

Greg

[Larry Jones 98326]

Greg,

I mentioned a 21j Columbus in the related thread some days back. (I showed you this watch). I was able to inspect the watch again today. It is:

505620-CK-21-Htg

BUT, it does have 22 jewels. I pulled the dial and carefully inspected both plates. The layout is standard for an 18s 21 jewel with cap jewels on both ends of the pallet and escape arbors. The center wheel is jeweled on both arbors. The extra jewel is a cap jewel on the end of the barrel arbor and looks completely original to me.

Larry

[Kent]

Our Apologies:

Neither Ed nor I meant to ignore the request for data. I think that each of us waited for the other to post it.

The watches below are in our data base. Their numbers may overlap with Greg's numbers, I made no attempt to eliminate any that duplicated his, or some of the others that were posted. As always, there may be errors from our sources or that we may have made in entering the data.

Kent
________________________________

500,176 TK 21 OF
500,243 TK 21 OF
500,360 TK 21 OF
500,441 TK 21 OF
500,489 TK 21 OF
500,823 TK 21 HC
500,975 TK 21 HC
501,809 TK 21 HC
502,047 TK 21 OF
502,200 TK 21 OF
502,316 RK 21 ??
502,367 CK 21 OF
502,411 RK 23 HC
502,459 CK 21 HC
502,641 RK 21 HC
502,797 CK 21 HC
502,806 RK 23 OF
502,818 CK 23 OF
502,828 CK 23 ??
502,842 CK 23 OF
502,857 CK 21 OF
502,924 CK 21 OF
502,924 CK 21 OF
503,009 RK 25 OF
503,031 RK 25 OF
503,073 CK 25 HC
503,094 CK 25 OF
503,101 RK 25 HC
503,106 RK 25 HC
503,116 ?? 23 OF
503,150 CK 25 HC
503,171 CK 25 HC
503,281 CK 23 OF
503,315 CK 23 HC
503,361 CK 23 HC
503,431 RK 23 HC
503,620 CK 21 HC
503,640 RK 21 OF
503,727 RK 21 OF
503,738 CK 21 OF
503,835 RK 21 HC
503,872 CK 21 HC
503,996 CK 21 HC
504,047 CK 23 OF
504,058 CK 23 OF
504,067 CK 23 OF
504,106 CK 23 OF
504,208 CK 23 HC
504,230 CK 23 HC
504,252 CK 23 HC
504,276 RK 23 HC
504,283 CK 23 HC
504,324 CK 23 HC
504,478 CK 21 OF
504,539 CK 21 HC
504,583 CK 21 HC
504,636 CK 21 HC
504,683 CK 21 HC
504,798 CK 21 HC
504,879 RK 21 HC
504,900 CK 21 HC
504,971 CK 21 OF
505,067 CK 21 ??
505,243 CK 21 OF
505,275 CK 21 ??
505,395 CK 21 OF
505,432 CK 21 HC
505,511 CK 21 OF
505,513 CK 21 HC
505,620 CK 22 HC
505,749 CK 21 HC
505,857 CK 21 HC

[Steve Maddox]

Kent, Greg, Larry, and all,

This one of the best threads here I've seen in a long time, and I want to personally thank everyone who's contributed to it! I now have a much better grasp of the number and variety of these watches produced than I've ever had before, and it's all due to the information shared here! I would really like to see more interaction of this sort, and for these records to remain more or less "permanent."

I know that watches of this sort have virtually always been "collectible," but I think it's very interesting that so many are still known to exist from such a relatively small group. Do you guys agree, or do you think it's normal for such a relatively high percentage to still be accounted for?

SM

[John Cote]

Just a side note. I spoke with the gentleman who just cleaned the 25j CK in the picture I originally posted (a very fine watchmaker). He said that the watch was a pain from a design standpoint, but that it was very fancy on the inside, with damascened wheels!

JohnCote

[rrwatch]

I believe that all of the 23 and 25 jewel Columbus watches have a damaskeened gear train. Considering that they are all full plate movements that have to be fully disassembled just to see the gear train, this may have been considered "guilding the lilly", but it does show to what extent watch companies would go in the artistic decoration of their top of the line watches.
In case anyone is interested, the two extra jewels in the 25 jewel movements are located in the mainspring barrel assembly, making a total of four. There are two arbor bearings set into the barrel itself as well as the two jewels in the upper and lower plates. The visible jewels are not functional as they only come into play when the watch is wound. The two jewels in the barrel itself are functional, as they operate while the movement is running, similar to the sleeve bearings used in 23 and some 19 jewel Waltham barrels. Their disadvantage is that they cannot be seen by the owner, so were not as effective a marketing tool. On a motor barrel, the visible plate jewel is functional, which was one of its main advantages, along with not needing a safety pinion to protect the train if a mainspring broke.

------------------
Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Ed,

My Time King also has decorated train wheels.

I will work harder to get the info from a few Columbus collectors on their high jewelled mvts. With a little luck we can get the best estimates yet of the production of these mvts. And of course, we will still be looking forward to the usual fine permanent record by Ed and Kent in the RR corner of the Bulletin.

Greg

[Kent]

Steve Maddox said ... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know that watches of this sort have virtually always been "collectible," but I think it's very interesting that so many are still known to exist from such a relatively small group. Do you guys agree, or do you think it's normal for such a relatively high percentage to still be accounted for?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve:

I've been building the data base with Ed for about a decade now, and its based (in part) on a number of dealer lists that I had been receiving for five or more years prior to that. Its always been a source of wonder to me that the huge majority of watches are only listed once and and it isn't the same ones just circulating around. Only since the most recent rise of e-Bay have a significant number of watches come around and around again - there's a lot of dealers selling to dealers out there.

But I digress, back to the subject, I think that almost all of them still exist. Not just the 500,000 series Columbus, but almost all of the higher grade watches and a huge number of the medium and lower grade ones. We've all seen those graveyards of picked-over movements and partial movements, but those graveyards still keep showing up at marts.

I believe that just about nobody (except maybe Jerry Seinfeld) throws away a watch. They end up in the back of the sock drawer, the bottom of the jewelry box, and etc. Yes a small percentage are lost to fire or flood and some standard watches have been dropped on the tracks (about ten years ago, a co-worker showed me a beat-to-hell Bunn Special that he had once found while walking along the tracks as a kid). But I think that most of them are out there, Granddad's, or great-uncle what's-his-name's watch, tucked away as family treasures.

Kent

[Greg Frauenhoff]

More numbers! These are courtesy of John Dimar (let's not forget the contributor's names).

351107-TK-21-OF
500243-TK-21-OF
500325-TK-21-OF
500485-Priv. Label-21-OF
500677-TK-21-Htg
501094-RB-21-Htg
501225-RB-21-Htg
501263-RB-21-Htg
501437-RB-21-OF?
501843-TK-21-Htg
502079-TK-21-OF
502275-CK-21-OF
502308-RK-23-OF
502354-CK-21-OF
502469-RK-21-Htg
502739-CK-21-Htg
502797-CK-21-Htg
502806-RK-23-OF
502808-CK-23-OF
502814-CK-23-OF
502828-CK-23-OF
502841-RK-23-OF
502842-CK-23-OF
502854-RK-23-OF
503009-RK-25-OF
503034-CK-25-OF
503048-CK-25-OF
503073-CK-25-OF
503074-CK-25-OF
503094-CK-25-OF
503101-RK-25-Htg
503106-RK-25-Htg
503150-CK-25-Htg
503161-RK-25-Htg
503171-CK-25-Htg
503315-RK-23-OF
503326-CK-23-Htg
503729-RK-21-OF
503825-CK-21-Htg
503835-RK-21-?
503872-CK-21-Htg
503937-CK?-21-Htg
504015-CK-23-OF
504047-CK-23-OF
504079-CK-23-OF
504083-CK-23-OF
504154-CK-23-OF?
504167-CK-23-OF
504169-CK-23-OF
504252-CK-23-Htg
504283-CK-23-Htg
504324-CK-23-Htg
504418-CK-23-Htg
504636-CK-21-Htg
505044-CK-21-OF
505640-CK-21-OF
505749-CK-21-Htg

[Greg Frauenhoff]

503119(ad)-CK-25-Htg

[Steve Cunningham]

After some searching, I found it. A third, to my knowledge, 25 Jewel Open Face Columbus Railway King, showed up several years ago. It was in the Ashland Catalog dated June/July 1997, page 4. It's an open face, Columbus Railway King, 25 Jewels, serial number 503,009. It did have the DS enamel dial marked "Columbus Railway King, 25 Jewels". Please add that number to the records.

[rrwatch]

Steve,
RWK 503009 also appeared in Roy Ehrhardt's Encyclopedia Vol. 1. To date Kent and I have the following S/Ns listed in our database as being 25 jewel Railway Kings,
503009 OF
503031 OF
503101 HC
503106 HC (listed by Roy as OF, but the screw locations indicate that it is a HC)
503161 HC
You mentioned three OF RWKs, what is the S/N of the one we are missing?
All the 25 jewel movements reported, both RWK and CK, go from 503009 to 503171.
As we receive more s/n data, the run definitions become much better defined. The additional information is really appreciated.

------------------
Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688

[This message has been edited by rrwatch (edited 07-17-2001).]