Need some advice or thoughts on lubrication...(Kinda Long)

[MikeP]

Just this week I had two customers, one with a longcase and one a wall clock, call to tell me that their clocks had stopped. I had cleaned/oiled the longcase about 14 months ago, the wallclock about 9 months ago. In both cases the owners, who are reasonably mechanical-types, said they sprayed a little WD40 on the pivots and then the clocks ran fine.

I am not here to talk about WD-40 but
it seems obvious that if the application of a little (very little, I hope) WD 40 caused the clocks to begin working, then the Nye Clock Oil I used did not last as long as I expect it to. I realize that there could be other factors at work, such as, did I correctly oil the clocks in the first place. I've been doing this a long time so my answer is, "I'm sure I did." But we all know that it's possible to forget or overlook something occasionally. I'm very careful with lubrication so I just can't imagine that I over-oiled or failed to oil any pivots on these clocks. I advise customers to have clocks lubricated every 2 years - I also provide instruction on how to do it if they want to do it themselves.

I have not had calls like this before so now I'm wondering if it's a new problem caused either by my failure somehow or a poor bottle of oil. I've never seen that (poor oil) either. Another possibility, of course, is that it has happened but other customers never called to inform me. So I'm interested in whether others have seen clocks require lubricant more frequently than every 2 years.

Incidentally, neither customer was upset - they just wanted to ask how to properly oil the clock. I told them I would do it at no charge because I felt the clocks should run much longer than they did. I'm embarrased to say how long a few of my own clocks have been running since I last lubricated them...

Any ideas, thought, advice? I'm always willing to learn - even if it means I need to UNLEARN something.

Thanks!

Mike Pumphrey
Watch and ClockWise
NAWCC
BHI

[MikeP]

Just this week I had two customers, one with a longcase and one a wall clock, call to tell me that their clocks had stopped. I had cleaned/oiled the longcase about 14 months ago, the wallclock about 9 months ago. In both cases the owners, who are reasonably mechanical-types, said they sprayed a little WD40 on the pivots and then the clocks ran fine.

I am not here to talk about WD-40 but
it seems obvious that if the application of a little (very little, I hope) WD 40 caused the clocks to begin working, then the Nye Clock Oil I used did not last as long as I expect it to. I realize that there could be other factors at work, such as, did I correctly oil the clocks in the first place. I've been doing this a long time so my answer is, "I'm sure I did." But we all know that it's possible to forget or overlook something occasionally. I'm very careful with lubrication so I just can't imagine that I over-oiled or failed to oil any pivots on these clocks. I advise customers to have clocks lubricated every 2 years - I also provide instruction on how to do it if they want to do it themselves.

I have not had calls like this before so now I'm wondering if it's a new problem caused either by my failure somehow or a poor bottle of oil. I've never seen that (poor oil) either. Another possibility, of course, is that it has happened but other customers never called to inform me. So I'm interested in whether others have seen clocks require lubricant more frequently than every 2 years.

Incidentally, neither customer was upset - they just wanted to ask how to properly oil the clock. I told them I would do it at no charge because I felt the clocks should run much longer than they did. I'm embarrased to say how long a few of my own clocks have been running since I last lubricated them...

Any ideas, thought, advice? I'm always willing to learn - even if it means I need to UNLEARN something.

Thanks!

Mike Pumphrey
Watch and ClockWise
NAWCC
BHI

[doug sinclair]

Paul,

I ran into a similar problem about 15 years ago. I don't know whether relating my experience will help you or not, but here goes.

I use ultrasonics with L & R 677 clock cleaner and # 3 L & R rinse in the cleaning of clocks. I strip off all the ancillary parts initially, and clean the clock still assembled so I can assess the condition of the bearings, etc. Then I strip the clock and do whatever work is necessary amd re-assemble it, cleaning it one more time. Then I put all the ancillary parts back on and finish the clock. For years I had used an in car heater in a wooden box as a dryer and had had no problem. Then, one day I decided to buy an air compressor, and that is when my problems started. When clocks started to come back, I found green grunge where I had applied oil in all the bearings. I wasn't getting all of the #3 rinse out of the bearing holes when I dried the movements with compressed air. Needless to say, I learned very quickly after redoing a bunch of clocks. Now, I make absolutely certain that I get the bearing holes dry. Does this sound like it might be your problem?

Doug S.

[Tom Chaudoir]

Hi Mike,

I always advise my customers not to lubricate their own clocks.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>You can't get at the front pivots without removing the movement. Oiling should be done with good light and magnification with the movement on the bench.
<LI>The customer will almost certainly use too much oil of the wrong kind and in the wrong places.
<LI>You may have given great instructions, but what will he remember when the clock stops several years from now? Probably that it's ok to oil it, and little more. He will end up soaking it, and you know what a pretty mess that can be.
<LI>He will not notice badly worn pivots and such. Soaking it may get it to run for a while by adding oil to dirt. The next time it stops he will apply another layer because it "worked" the last time. When you finally get it back it will be a basket case.
[/list]

Lubrication isn't something you can teach in 5 minutes. Seasoned professionals get into heated debates about the fine points. I tell my customers why it's a bad idea for them to try it themselves. Once they understand, they are thankful that I shared the information.

These are just my opinions. Others are invited to dispute them. After that we can step outside :wink:

Regards,

Tom Chaudoir
Milwaukee, WI
America
150429

[LaBounty]

Hi Mike-

As has already been mentioned, lubrication is an art and science. Contamination of the oils is a big problem and is most often the cause of the oil failing prematurely. I use Doug's method of running the movements through an ultrasonic cleaner and then through an ultrasonic rinse. I disassemble the movement, address the problems, and do any additional cleaning the ultrasonics didn't take care of. Before reassembling the movement, however, I peg out the bearing holes with a toothpick. You'll be surprised how dirty the toothpick will get from a hole you thought was clean! When the toothpick comes out clean then I know the fresh oil will have a better chance of being free of contaminates.

As for the oils I use...I use Laperle clock oil on most American, French, and English movements. On modern German movements I will use Etsyntha. Then there are two types of Mobius (clock and tower clock) I will use on the larger, heavy movements like longcases. In addition, I'll use Mobius if the customer is a smoker since it seems to hold up better in that kind of environment. Then there is another oil I use for electric movements...

As you can see, my choice of oil depends on the movement type and construction as well as the environment in which the movement will run. This has worked well for me but I still run into contamination problems occasionally.

I'm sure there are many other lubricants out there that will work just as well but if you aren't using Etsyntha on the modern German movements you may want to try it. I know the German cuckoo movements even have it written on the plates as the type to use. The lead in the steel of these movements seems to break down the other oils rather quickly.

Hope that helps! David.

[lpbp]

I attended a lecture at a Regional years ago, and the presenter said using an Ultrasonic Cleaner dries out the porous brass too much. He suggested running the movement in a test stand for a few days after oiling, then re-oiling. I was having simliar problems and went to this method with very good results.

Larry Pearson, FNAWCC #35863 L138
candidate for Director

[MikeP]

You all made some excellent points. I now agree that my willingness to help owners lubricate their own clocks is misplaced and I will quit doing it.

I disassembled/cleaned as I usually do - pegged out all bushings, cleaned/polished pivots, etc. But since I haven't seen the clocks, I don't know what the pivots/bushings look like now - whether there is the green "grunge" or not. However, one thing I did differently on these clocks is that I used a can of "dust off" to dry the plates and some of the parts. I am now wondering if that could be the problem. I noticed that the plates discolored slightly and there was a bit of condensation. In thinking about it, I believe I just wiped the condensation off the plate. I didn't re-peg the bushing or pay any further attention to the pivots.

Perhaps that moisture is the problem. It could have caused some lubrication breakdown or maybe caused the pivots to rust

I only used the Dust Off a few times and haven't used it in the the past 6 months or so. I never will again in any case.

I'll get the clocks and see what the pivots/bushings look like.

Thanks for the suggestions.

MikeP

[gre406]

Here's a quick tip that is much better than "pegging out" those holes or bushings by hand..

A nice burnish to all holes after installing bushings..

http://userweb.nni.com/gre406/burnish.jpg

The drill press and hard round tooth picks do a quick and fine job. The polish on the inside makes a great "mate" for those polished pivots.

Geo
NAWCC#78594

[MikeP]

Well, this remains a mystery to me...

I have the wall clock in question. Everything looked fine. The clock ran all day in my shop with no attention at all from me. The oil sinks all still had the proper amount of oil and the oil itself looked OK.

The clock is very sensitive to being level. Now I'm wondering if perhaps it was just out of beat. The customer says no and that it wouldn't run until the WD 40 was added. But he did not add WD 40 to the front (dial side) because he couldn't get to it. But the oil on the dial side looked correct - not congealed at all and still present in the oil sink as it should have been.

I still believe it was just out of beat but who knows...I'll watch it for a week and see what it does...

[David Goodman]

For the years I've been teaching, the question I automatically ask when someone brings a clock in that "has just been repaired and lubricated", but it isn't running as it should (or not at all) is... ".. did you lubricate the escapement?"
The reponse, so often is.."OH, I think I forgot, and that's the most obvious place, isn't it?"

Considering that this happened twice (only) and you have likely been using the same oil many more times than twice,
And considering that WD40 is not a lubricant (but may be so for a short period until the vehicle evaporates). And lubing the pivots was mentioned twice and not the escapement,.. ...
Is that a possibility?

[Carroll Hardin]

You hit on a very important clue, for a clock to run fine then for no apparent reason, it will just refuse to run.It seems that some clocks run fine without pallet lube, while some will not. I just had two GB Viennas like that, refused to run, but a small drop on the pallets solved the problem. " No WD 40" comes near a clock I am servicing. You are right, it is not a lubricant. I personnally don't think there is a whole lot of difference between the commercial oils available today. Thanks,

Carroll

[Original Dial]

In December I restored a Swiss music box. Took it apart cleaned everything and would still not work. Looked closely at two gears meshing and looked like a likely spot for stoppage. Sprayed a little WD-40 in that spot and has been working great since. Not saying to use WD-40 regularly for clockwork but it does have its' place.

[MikeP]

Thanks for the additional suggestions...

Yes, I lubricate the escapement as a normal part of the oiling process.

In this case, the clock, according to the customer's initial account, suddenly refused to run. He dabbed some WD 40 on two pivots with his finger (didn't spray it onto the movement). Then it ran OK.

He did not WD 40 any of the front pivots or any part of the escapement. As I stated, all oil sinks had the appropriate amount of oil in them and, under a 12 power loupe, the oil was clean and fluid. Therefore, since the clock ran perfectly on my workbench, I concluded that the oil or oiling process had nothing to do with the problem.

AND NOW, THE REST OF THE STORY

After asking the customer a few questions today, he recalled that he had moved the clock to a new location. That is when it began the
not-running-for-long symptoms. He removed the clock from the wall and, sitting it on his table, added the WD40 and started the clock. It ran fine. He determined that the lubrication must have been the problem because the WD 40 "fixed" it. That's when he called me to ask how to properly lubricate the clock. But the TABLE fixed it, not the WD 40 because the table was level so the clock was in beat. The clock was not level when hanging on the wall in its new location.

We have since discussed all this and I'll return the clock to him tomorrow freshly cleaned and lubed at no charge...

Don't quit your day job for a career in watch/clock repair.

[Carroll Hardin]

Amen, on the day job. About 90% of come backs are customers not handling the clock properly and some just don't listen when you advise them on the procedure--even tick, don't run the hands backwards etc(except most 4/4's).

400 days are really a problem with owners.

Carroll