Do pocket watches increase their value in the course of time?

[kronos]

That´s my question.

In general terms, if you have a collection of pocket watchs. All functioning, many of them silver ( a few metal ones), from a perfiod between 1875-1930, if you sell them, for example, in 10 years, their sale value would be similar, less, or more than the one you bought them? thanks

[webs110733]

i would guess that they would go up in price as long as you keep them in good condition if not well then they would most likely depreciate in value

[Wes]

Some do, some, when adjusted for inflation, don't.

Several factors contribute to this, such as:
metal content (gold, platinum and silver prices);
rarity;
condition;
current market conditions (RRs are still hot, esp Hamiltons and Illinois);
etc.

Also, it depends who you are selling them to, and what the sales venue is. Many times, eBay auctions close very close to dealer costs on common watches. More rare watches and watches that are hot at the time can bring much more than dealer cost.

[CZHACK]

Kronos,

We would need a crystal ball to answere your question but an educated guess is that a poor collection will decrease over time (when considering inflation), an average collection might hold its own or show some return (but after inflation and alternative returns had money been invested?), and a collection of good quality and prized items might show some or even considerable return depending on many horology/collector and economic factors.

My guess is that the majority of us 1)collect for the pure joy of the hobby (mix of art and science), 2) hope to at least be able to tell our spouses that we could get our money back - no problem, and 3)experience the thrill of finding a special watch at a very good price every once in a while.

Mike

[Thomas Tallant]

About a year ago, a friend and I took a 10-year sample of prices from Shugart to see how much watches appreciated in the book. We had two groups of watches: high-end RR and the more affordable standard RR watches. We found that the high-end watches appreciated about 7% per year. The more standard RR watches appreciated at a lower rate (which I can't recall, but I think it between 2 and 5% per year).

Whether this happens in real life or not, I can't say. However, I think it is safe to say that collecting high-end watches is almost always a safe bet. Rather than trying to collect lots of affordable watches, it might be better to collect a smaller number of rare or high-end watches. But that's just one way to look at watch collecting, and a rather limited one at that.

For what it's worth....

[RonD.]

I tend to believe that they will go up in value in some way. A friend of mine sold a collection that he had for 40 years.. all top of the line stuff. He really got a great return on his investment (if you want to look at it that way).

On the other hand, I have another friend who is selling all his stuff now because he feels that the demand won't be there in twenty years. He believes that the young generation of today will have no interest in collecting antiques of any kind in the future.

I disagree,
Ron

[Clint Geller]

Pocket watches can increase in value while you own them, but looked at purely and cold-bloodedly as investments they are generally lousy. This is true whether you overpaid for a watch or you got an incredible bargain on it, since in the latter case you could turn the item around and almost certainly do better (long-term) putting your money somewhere else, and with greater liquidity.

The bottom line: The only real reason to own an expensive pocket watch, other than a family heirloom, is the personal satisfaction one derives from owning it.

[StanJS]

As others have mentioned, it depends.

If you collect $50,000+ repeaters, your investments will appreciate quite well but still fluctuate with the art market. The art market fluctuates with the economy - as do stocks. If you buy railroad watches in gold cases, your watches fluctuate with the commodities market. If you buy a gold-cased watch now, you may be paying top dollar. Thus, you have to buy low and sell high.

In short, it's a crap shoot. Ya pays your quarter and takes your chances.

Cheers,
Stan

[Jon Hanson]

It depends what you bought, how much you paid, what you kept, from whom, how well you know watches and when to play or pass. I have always contended that no one should spend more on a hobby than one can afford to lose; however, done correctly, watches have provided huge profits for some and have provided an excellent storehouse of value for others. Assertions and opinions such as a "lousy investment" are absurd.

[ron schneider]

if you are into pocket wastches soley to make money you certainly can loose significant amounts of money. if you are in thr hobby to enjoy learn and really appreciate the history you have increased your net worth by significant dollars. The financial part of collecting can be great if you collect for your own personal satisfaction and stay away from the passing fancies.staples always increase in value as to complete collections of a company. rareties always increase in value. but if it is only for the money you have failed. enjoy the watches and become very wealthy

[John Pavlik]

Mr. schneider,

Very well said................

[kronos]

I collect for personal satisfaction, but I´d like to know that if I were in the necessity of selling them, at least, I would recover the money I paid for them.

[Jon Hanson]

It depends on what you bought and price you paid; plus, the selling venue.

[Clint Geller]

All,

I repeat, if you love watches, then buy them. But do not buy them with the expectation that they will be a great long-term investment. Most often, other more liquid and/or income producing forms of investment will serve one better for that purpose.

Impolite characterizations of other person's very reasonable opinions on this or any other subject as "absurd" tend to foster an atmosphere of hostility and intimidation on this message board, our organization's most prominent public face. Such characterizations discourage the amicable interchange of views and information as well as recruitment. They are contrary to the interests and to the reason for being of the NAWCC in general and to this message board in particular.

Clint Geller, FNAWCC

[Jon Hanson]

I am pleased to see that folks read these posts and like use my phrases and words such as repeat, etc., etc.; however, characterizing watch collectors' purchases as "lousy" is simply NOT true and sends an incorrect message to watch enthusiasts around the world and is what creates the alleged "hostility."

Collectors are free to collect what they like; but the cold HARD FACTS ARE THAT WATCHES, CLOCKS AND MANY OTHER COLLECTIBLES HAVE PROVEN TO BE GREAT INVESTIMENTS, if not why are so many billions of dollars going into the collectibles market?

Identifying watches as "lousy, non-liquid," etc. is an insult to the intelligence of the majority of most collectors, whatever they collect. The issue is financial rewards, not one small collectors' opinion!


REPEATED FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE THAT MISSED MY EARLIER STATEMENT OR THAT NEED AN UNDERSTANDING about this issue "It depends what you bought, how much you paid, what you kept, from whom, how well you know watches and when to play or pass. I have always contended that no one should spend more on a hobby than one can afford to lose; however, done correctly, watches have provided huge profits for some and have provided an excellent storehouse of value for others."

Folks who fail to understand the above statement simply lack knowledge, fundamentals, and education about whatever collectible they collect and most certainly have done a poor job of building a collection.

[Jeff Hess]

Children! I'll turn this car around!

:smile:

interestng that Ron and Clint agree (more or less)

I am kind of in the middle on this one. Personal satisfaction is number one. Common American stuff seems to increase in "value" very little.

But the rarer stuff holds it own, I think, keeping up with inflation at least.

Swiss stuff is through the roof. Pick up a 1970's copy of a Sothebys catalogue and look at the complcated Pateks. Terrific investment!

Play nice guys.

[Jon Hanson]

POPPA, BIG DADDY JEFF, READ THE OP SALES.

READ THE LATEST ON "COMMON" ILLINOIS SALES.

SEE THE LATEST HAMILTON SALES.

WATCH THE OVERSEAS SALES IN CHINA AND ELSEWHERE.

WRIST WATCHES--YOU KNOW THE STORY.

CHECK OUT THE TIME MUSEUM SALE RECORDS OF RARE AMER AND ENG.

How about crystal plates at $100-200,000.00?

THE FACTS ARE THERE ON PRICE INCREASES.

AND, BETTER REREAD WHAT DR STATED; HE IS NOT IN AGREMENT WITH YOUR STATEMENT.

[Jeff Hess]

Sir Jon,

I think your point is well made and as I said I agree with you that rarer and better quality stuff seems to make a good investment.

But the real reason we collect is for the satisfaction and study and scholarship I think.

We all HOPE our collection will increase in value for sure.

Jon, lets keep this on a calm and gentlemanly level. your "all caps" seems agressive to some.

No one is attacking you. Everyone loves you. :smile:

[Clint Geller]

Everyone reading this thread knows what kinds of remarks generate hostility and which don't. A "personal attack" doesn't need to actually mention a person's name to be personal. I never characterized collectors' purchases as "lousy." I said they were usually lousy investments. That is an opinion that should be expressable on this message board in a collegial, courteous discussion where other participants may agree or disagree. Impolite characterizations of other person's views are uncalled for and simply are not in our organization's interest.

[Kent]

Gentlemen:

There are valid points on both sides. A knowledgeable and discerning buyer may indeed assemble a collection that is a good investment. There are sufficient examples to prove this point.

However, many of us also pick up watches just because we like them, or like what they represent. Many times, the investment quality of these watches prove to be, as Clint said, lousy. The value increase of the amount spent on these watches would have been much greater had they been wisely invested in more a traditional manner.

Please just accept that there is truth in both viewpoints and let the matter drop.

Thanks,

[Jon Hanson]

It is important on a public forum to explain facts, especially to newer collectors, infrequent readers, and even some "older collectors" ignorant of current facts regarding the investment issue. Characterizing the casual buyer, a buyer buying because he likes a watch or two, or someone buying blind as an investor does not addrerss the issue. We must look outside the box into the real world and view what is going on in the world of "investment buying" in horology WHICH IS A FACT. Like it or not (and I for one do not like it) watches have become a commodity: 100s of millions of dollars are being invested in watches as an investment; others are putting large sums of money into the hobby rather than other investment vehicles. Watches, for example, are now possibly out performing some RE, stocks, etc. But as we all know these can be very cyclical--just about everything is cyclical--but this is another topic.

Small fortunes have been amassed buying watches, clocks, collectibles--THIS IS HARDLY A "LOUSY" INVESTMENT AS STATED by a person ABOVE and is UNCALLED FOR AS IT DOES NOT PORTRAY THE TRUTH........ ANYONE can make a BAD buy in ANY field of investing, BE IT STOCKS, THE FUNDS, RE, COMMODITIES, COLLECTIBLES, etc., etc.; possibly BAD investors should tred lightly when it comes to "investing" in those "lousy" watches.

*Edited for typos; caps=bold, as bold tool doesn't work on my computer.

[Jon Hanson]

Another point missed:

Singling out one, two or a few watches in a collection ACQUIRED FOR WHATEVER REASON CANNOT make or break the "investment" issue--IT IS THE SUM OF THE TOTAL WHICH IS THE INVESTMENT, OR THE AVERAGE P/L AT THE END OF THE YEAR OR AT SALE TIME OF THE "INVESTMENT."

Like stocks, some individual purchases might be either BIG winners or losers.

[Jeff Hess]

Like stocks, some individual purchases might be either BIG winners or losers.


Great point.

This is especailly important with wrist watches.

Case in point: About 15 years ago, I "invested" in three Platinum SWATCH watches. Total outlay was around 8 grand for the three of them. Today they are worht maybe 3500 for all three.

About the same time I sold a pulsations dial Patek Chronograph for about the same money.
Today that watch will sell at auction for 200k.

Bad descision. :smile:

[IMHO]

Ok - so time makes heroes of us all, and lousy purchases just take more time than others.

Which may be the reason I haven't sold but one watch yet. Hey, I couldn't stand seeing a grown man beg like that, and for a Jules Jurgenson quartz in a nice wooden box! He wanted to engrave it and present it to his ailing father. I tried to convince him that what he really wanted was the blazer clean, substantial, original 17J Adjusted mechanical Elgin with the perfect dial. But no deal on the Elgin as it didn't have a spiffy box to go with it.

I guess the customer is always right! :biggrin:

[StanJS]

Dave says: "time makes heroes of us all"

I was just thinking about when I was last actively collecting. It was the late 1970s, the Hunt brothers were trying to corner the silver market. Gold and silver were at historic highs. Watches with precious metal cases were out of sight - which is why all my watches have pot metal cases.

Now, gold and silver are at historic highs. My timing is perfect as always: Buy high, sell low. It's deja-vu all over again.

Cheers,
Stan

[Tom McIntyre]

Stan,

My dear departed friend Jerry Laux always claimed that he intentionally sold everything for less than he paid for it to prevent losing his "amateur standing." :biggrin:

[Jon Hanson]

since when is gold and silver now at historic highs?

[StanJS]

You're right, Jon. I forgot to turn my brain on when I wrote that. It is a local maximum only.

Cheers,
Stan

[Roland Ranfft]

Erased to keep peace
<tmc> Edited on behalf of Roland at his request.

[Mike Kenley]

Roland,

I am glad to see that you are contemplating a Membership in the NAWCC. Maybe when you do become a member you will also be able to afford a membership and be accepted in the NAWCC Chapter 149 and take advantage of the educational opportunies and leadership available there.