Pivot Hole Repair Dilemma!

[bchaps]

I am cleaning an absolutely stunning 100 year old Ansonia Regulator Model A. The movement has no prior bushing repairs and NO punches or pricks around the pivot holes. This client prefers to keep everything as original as possible.

The dilemma: My normal bushing policy is "if in doubt - DO IT!" But since this antique is still pristine, I'm reluctant to be the first to bore a bushing hole in the plates. Since polishing pivots and burnishing holes, the wear is now "MODERATE" on my Light, Moderate, and Heavy wear scale. If I look closely, I can see daylight around the pivot. But, I would certainly appreciate the input of my distinguished peers from this forum. The attached link goes to a MPG file at my website. It's 200k in size, so it will be slow loading with dial-up.

Should I bush or is the wear acceptable in your opinion.

Thanks, Bill

Link: http://www.clockguru.com/Photos/pivotwear.MPG

[bchaps]

I am cleaning an absolutely stunning 100 year old Ansonia Regulator Model A. The movement has no prior bushing repairs and NO punches or pricks around the pivot holes. This client prefers to keep everything as original as possible.

The dilemma: My normal bushing policy is "if in doubt - DO IT!" But since this antique is still pristine, I'm reluctant to be the first to bore a bushing hole in the plates. Since polishing pivots and burnishing holes, the wear is now "MODERATE" on my Light, Moderate, and Heavy wear scale. If I look closely, I can see daylight around the pivot. But, I would certainly appreciate the input of my distinguished peers from this forum. The attached link goes to a MPG file at my website. It's 200k in size, so it will be slow loading with dial-up.

Should I bush or is the wear acceptable in your opinion.

Thanks, Bill

Link: http://www.clockguru.com/Photos/pivotwear.MPG

[Robert M.]

We're not museum curators Bill,we're clock repairmen.As much as I respect your philosophy on maintaining the originality of your movement I personally believe the customer would be better served if you repaired any wear that has occured over the years.Your customer is still going to have a pristine clock only it will run as it was intended to run.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

[Clockortwo]

Bill

I am not distinguished nor a peer but I think the hole should be bushed unless you think the clock will run properly, without needing service, for less than two years. I'll bet your client would feel the same.

Clockortwo

[David Robertson]

What did the customer want done to the clock? Repaired and made to run? or cleaned and preserved for posterity in unaltered state?

David

[TEACLOCKS]

IF You say If In Doubt - DO IT. Nothing should stop you, Sounds like a GOOD policy.

[bchaps]

The client is a purist. Example; He has previously requested that original mainsprings NOT be replaced unless there are obvious indications it will fail. But, at the same time, he wants the clock in operable condition. It's a very find line to understand. According to him, the value of a clock is greatly enhanced if it is totally original. Based upon the pieces given to me for cleaning, this client has collected absolutely beautiful original examples of early American clock manufacturing.

Bill

[Bob Reichel]

To bush or not to bush! This is a decision you must have with the customer. Bushing is to reduce friction so power can be transmitted efficiently to the next wheel. Explain it this way. Cite the surface contact between two marbles. Now, demonstrate this by using two of your finger barely touching. Then, press those fingers against eachother. Tell him this is the increase in surface tension as related to friction. When friction becomes so great as to steal a lot of power, then the clock will not run. It can not get the mainspring power up to the escape wheel and furnish that pleasing firm loud tick-tock. If he still does not like to see bushings, ask about full plugs, drilling out with the help of a "preacher". No matter what you do the repair is evident and will show.

[clocker2]

If your customer is a purist and wants the movement to be as original as possible, why not clean it thoroughly and reassemble the movement. Then test in on the test stand before making any 'bushing' decisions. Test it at minimum, middle and maximum power. If it runs, then recase it and explain that all you did was a good cleaning and oiling. The worst that could happen is that you may have to install a bushing or two.

Jeff Major

[tymfxr]

It looks to me that the bushing has somewhat more that moderate wear. I would tell your customer that there is a risk of further damage to the clock if it is left in that condition.
Also if your customer doesn't take your advice I would make a note of it on the receipt and have him/her sign it.

[lofty]

Bill, if you believe that re-bushing is needed, I would suggest to the client that it should be done, explaining why and the possible consequences if it is not done. If the client declines to have it done, you can simply abide by his/her wishes and make a notation on both the client's and your invoice copy to this effect. I think it would also be pertinent to point out to the client that by not having the re-bushing done now, they are only delaying it and at some time in the future it will have to be done.

Lofty

[TEACLOCKS]

Cars worth a 1/2 million dollars need the wheel bearings changed sometimes. If you use the smallest bushings possable they should fit in the oil sink and look fine. What would you do if it didnt run when they brought the clock to you because of a worn bushing. Clocks in the day were made to be repaired??????? Good luck

[Len Lataille]

"The client is a purist."
Then I take it that you are doing a paid professional job. Explain to the "client" what has to be done. Rebushing is a normal part of repairing a clock in order to run. If he cant live with this, then let him look for someone else, that just might go ahead an butcher his clock (prick-punch) without discussing his repair methods with the clock owner.
Personally, I have very little use for purists. Let them learn how to repair their own clocks. When they see the work that is involved to do the job properly, they might just develop some respect for what the repairman has to deal with.
Good luck with this guy.

[Clockortwo]

Bill

Most of the commenters here are correct. One has no use for purists. I'm a collector and a purist. Personally I have no use for repair guys who have no use for purists.

Bill, this is simple and too much has been writen here. Email or call the client. Explain the facts. Let him choose the path he wants while understanding the consequences. Done. Move on to the next repair.

(Note= Ten bucks says he says ok to bush.)

Clockortwo

[T.J. Kloss]

Bill :biggrin:
With the permission of the customer, I would bush it. However, I wouldn't use a Bergon or KWM bushing. I would make the bushing myself.
Just an aside comment. Purists are our bread an butter
Tom :cool:

Tom

“Sometimes you really don’t know if your being rewarded or punished”

[bangster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The movement has no prior bushing repairs and NO punches or pricks around the pivot holes. This client prefers to keep everything as original as possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This suggests several possibilities. (1) The client JUST wants the clock cleaned & lubed, no repairs. Easily done, but unsatisfactory to a dedicated clockster. (2) Repairs are acceptable as long as no un-original material is added. Also easily done, if the-customer-is-always-right. Hold your nose, work over the worn pivot holes with a hole-closing punch and broaches. No new material (bushing). Eek. (3) Client wants the clock "fixed", but without doing any repairs. No punching, no re-bushing. Just "fix" it. Impossible to do. Tell him to look for a magician, not a clocksmith. (4) Client will accept NECESSARY replacements (cracked mainspring? etc.). Who determines what is necessary and what isn't? The client, or the expert he takes his clocks to? If he trusts you to work on his clocks, he should trust your judgment about what NEEDS to be done. If pivot holes are worn, then they indeed NEED re-bushed...if not now, and not by you, then later and by somebody. (5) If he wants to put off a needed repair as long as possible ("will this cracked mainspring last another year or two?" "will it run a few more years without re-bushing?"), go with that. The client has problems not of your making, and he'll have to live with them. (6) Client is a reasonable man, respects your expertise, believes you won't ruin his pristine clock with unnecessary repairs, believes you when you tell him re-bush will be needed sooner or later --the wear is starting to show--and it would be prudent to do it now. If he balks, that makes him a type-(5) client. Otherwise, bush with a clear conscience. Or so say I.

bangster

[Clockortwo]

Bill, I repeat,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bill, this is simple and too much has been writen here. Email or call the client. Explain the facts. Let him choose the path he wants while understanding the consequences. Done. Move on to the next repair.

(Note= Ten bucks says he says ok to bush.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clockortwo

[shutterbug]

One possible alternative is to preserve the original movement as is and look for an identical movement to house in his case as a repaired working model. He can put the old movement back in at any time in the pristine condition it is in now if he desires.

[K Reindel]

Bill,

Looking at the video it appears that the hole in question is worn oblong. The #1 priority in bushing is to restore holes that are worn oblong.

I fully agree with Klossee and would go with a homemade bushing riveted in place and finished to blend invisibly with the plate. DeCarle describes the technique, as does Huckabee in his Top 300 Tips. By the way with some practice, you might never go back to KWM or Bergeon friction fits.

Kind regards,
Ken

[shutterbug]

Maybe someone could enlighten me on the process you're discussing (blended home-made bushing). I've never used anything but friction fit bushings and would like to hear the details on how to go about doing it. Thanks!

[Jerry Kieffer]

Bill
Actually I find this to be a quite common request from those willing (Most of The Time) to pay a premium price for qaulity work. In a case like this I machine each bushing as small as possible for the size of pivot and friction fit with a small amount sticking out on each side of the plate. (About .025") From this point each side is "peened" into the plate and the pivot hole is then resized. Then an original shape oil sink is installed if one existed originally. Both sides of the bushing are then dressed flush with the plates so they blend with each other. In order to make sure the bushings are undetectable I then very lightly bead blast the bushing area at about 35 PSI that actually slightly mixes the metal with each other at the seam as you move the blast from side to side. This further blends the plate and bushing together. From that point the bushed areas and plates are buffed with whatever combination of abrasive and steel wool will dublicate the original finish. I have made up a plate showing the process in various stages with the end result shown side by side to a standard bushing job. When a customer such as yours is given options they are generally are more than happy to pay the premuim price for premuim work. In a case such as this both the customer and the repair person win. You get to properly repair the clock and are highly paid for this type work. (As you deserve to be if your work is properly done) The big pay off is when they send their friends who are also more than happy to pay for qaulity work.

Jerry Kieffer

[RJSoftware]

Just leave it be. If you mess up, there goes his virgin works.

RJ

[Scottie-TX]

You may consider giving the customer the option suggested by JERRY K: Nearly invisible. I don't go to all the lengths as he but the few times I do replace them - last eve for example - I used .072 brass rod stock to bore a .015 hole for an anchor pivot. When finished and dressed it is NEARLY seamless.

[RJSoftware]

Jerry;

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then an original shape oil sink is installed if one existed originally. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought an oil sink was just a dip carved out from a certain beveled drill bit or the like.

RJ

[Jerry Kieffer]

RJ
You are correct and in many cases with no two being the same on less expensive and even some expensive works.
However when paying a hefty premium price for an exact undetectable repair, I supply what the customer request`s. An exact recreation of the original on each pivot be it the same or not. This type of work is very easy to do with the proper Measuring/Machine tools and in many cases take less time than traditional methods if it is done on a regular basis.

I once did work for a blind Clock collector (Now Deceased) who would feel every part a works before it was repaired. He would re-feel the works after repair to check the qaulity of the repair work such as bushing`s etc. Once the work was excepted the works was recleaned before installation in the case. The customer was very happy to pay for this service that others would not supply because they thought the guy was crazy.

Jerry Kieffer

[K Reindel]

My process is similar to Jerry's without the bead blasting step. Depending on the shape of the oil sink, the final finish might be done with a wheel-shaped chamfering tool or simply left the round convex shape of the staking punch, or perhaps a simple V chamfer. On some clocks, some pivots don't have oil sinks, in which case a light chamfer can be added which is nearly undetectable, to blend the bushing and remove the burr.

I have reached the point where 100% of my bushings are produced on the watchmakers lathe, riveted and staked as described by Jerry. Again, Huckabee and DeCarle also describe the techniques with pictorials in great detail. It seems it's somewhat of a lost art because of Bergeon and KWM, but it really isn't all that hard to do once you practice a bit. Huckabee points out that the process work hardens the brass as well, giving it a little more wear resistance. You won't get that from the pre-made bushings.

The thing I like the best is I am no longer a slave to running out of bushing sizes, having to deal with the clumsy, large bushing tool on the bench, cheap reamers that bulge the edges of the holes, etc.

Ken

[shutterbug]

......still waiting for the process :smile:

[bchaps]

Remember Victor Kiam who promoted Remington shavers with the phrase "I liked the shaver so much I bought the company".

Well, I liked this Ansonia so much, I bought the clock! :biggrin:

Now I must make the decision whether to repair the pivot hole.

Picture of the clock in my shop.

Bill

http://www.clockguru.com/Photos/DSC05031.JPG