Bad Boy!: Is it a Elgin 572, 616, or ?

[JimJ]

Hello,

I am respectfully requesting the help of this board to identify the watch below. This is my fathers watch that I took apart at 5 and hid under my bed(guilty little *%%$$!), then my mother ran it over with a hoover(ouch!)...and now I want to reassemble at 44 and return to dad. I'm still gathering the original parts, but may not be able to recover the top plate/bridge containing the model and s/n(in the hoover?). My preference is to restore if the major components can be found, but may need to settle for a period movement. I would like to know if anyone can make a best effort SWAG at identifying the year and model, based on the pictures and descriptions below...hopefully they attached.

http://groups.msn.com/elgindadswatch/shoebox.msnw

I'm a newbie at watches, but here is what I've dug up to date:
1) Has the Elgin w/ Star logo on boxcar dial
2) Movement is 16 and has pressed in jewels in what I think was either a 572 or 616. Both models lacked markings on the top plate containing the ratchet wheel. I noticed that the end mill machining marks on the plate are narrower(about 1/8 wide as opposed to about 1/4) on other watches I've seen...mostly 616's. Is this a significant clue to determining the model and age?
3) Installed in a Keystone 10K gold filled case(s/n 63121)..believed to be 3056. ...say's "Cased and Timed by Elgin National Watch Co". I found several jewelers marks...one with a date of 1-6-50 scribed around the inside lip of the back case.

Ok...My guess is a 1946-48 Elgin 572. Any other guesses or clues that would help identify?

Thanks in advance.

Jim J.(Bad Boy)

[JimJ]

Hello,

I am respectfully requesting the help of this board to identify the watch below. This is my fathers watch that I took apart at 5 and hid under my bed(guilty little *%%$$!), then my mother ran it over with a hoover(ouch!)...and now I want to reassemble at 44 and return to dad. I'm still gathering the original parts, but may not be able to recover the top plate/bridge containing the model and s/n(in the hoover?). My preference is to restore if the major components can be found, but may need to settle for a period movement. I would like to know if anyone can make a best effort SWAG at identifying the year and model, based on the pictures and descriptions below...hopefully they attached.

http://groups.msn.com/elgindadswatch/shoebox.msnw

I'm a newbie at watches, but here is what I've dug up to date:
1) Has the Elgin w/ Star logo on boxcar dial
2) Movement is 16 and has pressed in jewels in what I think was either a 572 or 616. Both models lacked markings on the top plate containing the ratchet wheel. I noticed that the end mill machining marks on the plate are narrower(about 1/8 wide as opposed to about 1/4) on other watches I've seen...mostly 616's. Is this a significant clue to determining the model and age?
3) Installed in a Keystone 10K gold filled case(s/n 63121)..believed to be 3056. ...say's "Cased and Timed by Elgin National Watch Co". I found several jewelers marks...one with a date of 1-6-50 scribed around the inside lip of the back case.

Ok...My guess is a 1946-48 Elgin 572. Any other guesses or clues that would help identify?

Thanks in advance.

Jim J.(Bad Boy)

[Kent]

Hi Jim:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

I think that I've got the right syntax for the link to your watch: Jim's Watch (http://groups.msn.com/elgindadswatch/shoebox.msnw)

I can't tell you too much, but here are two indications that the date could be as late as 1950. The Star on the dial was dropped at about that time. Also, it was about that time that the model number of the case started appearing just above circular lettering "Cased and Timed by Elgin National Watch Co." Oh, I can confirm that the case is the model 3056 style. Of course, it'd be reasonable to expect that it wouldn't need attention for the first couple of years, so your guess of 1946-1948 would be correct for a grade No. 572.

Oh, does the back of the case have a semi-circular notch in the rim at about the 10 o'clock position? The 57x series needed this notch for the case rim to clear the regulator screw.

[JimJ]

Hello Kent,
Thanks for the info. The case does contain the cut-out at 10 position. However, the back of the case does not have the model number stamped above the cased & timed stamping. Any history you might have on the width of the top plate milling bands. Were these random machine set-ups or do you think there was some specific design to a model.
Thanks

[Bob Sharp]

If this is from the 57x series, then it's likely to be a 571 (21 jewel B.W. Raymond), a 572 (19 jewel) or 573 (17 jewel). The case looks right for the era, as well. The other watches in the series (574, 575, 616) were pendant set, ruling them out. However, most of these watches, especially after the intital runs, used dials with the "dp" DuraPower mark on them instead of the Elgin star.

[rrwatch]

The three cap jewels visible in the scan of the bottom of the pillar plate identifies this as a Grade 571. Only a 21 jewel movement would have the balance, pallet and escape wheel arbors cap jeweled.

[JimJ]

Thanks Bob,
Were there 571's without the B.W Raymond marking on the top plate? I see many 571's that have the narrow striped damaskeening. All the 572's I've seen have wider striped pattern.
Thanks
Jim

[Kent]

Jim:

Yes, the first 18,000 or 20,000 grade No. 571 lacked the B.W. Raymond signature.

[rrwatch]

The earliest production of the Grade 571 did not have the name "B. W. Raymond" on either the movement or on the dial. These movements are all marked "8 adjustments" on the plates. Later the B. W. Raymond name was added to both the dial and plates, keeping the "8 adjustments" marking. The last runs of the Grade 571 had the "9 adjustments" engraved on the plates, along with the "B. W. Raymond" markings.

[JimJ]

Thanks Kent,
I think we're getting closer. What date range were the 18000 produced? How do those production dates correspond to the period that the Elgin Star dial was used.
Jim

[Kent]

Grade 571 - See NAWCC Bulletin, October 1995 pages 599-605 and August 1996 pages 484-492.

Run.........S/N....S/N.................. Signed
No. Year - From - To - - - - - Qty - BWR

1 - 1946 U431001-U433000 - 2000 - NO
2 - 1946 U620001-U625000 - 5000 - NO
3 - 1946 U840001-U842000 - 2000 - NO
4 - 1946 U844001-U847000 - 3000 - NO
5 - 1947 J372001 - J378000 - 6000 - NO
6 - 1947 J693001 - J695000 - 2000 - Yes
7 - 1948 V525001-V535000 -10000 - Yes

Star appears on dials through run No. 12.
B.W. Raymond starts appearing on on dials around run No. 8 or No. 9.
Case model number starts appearing on the inside of the case back around run No. 9.

[JimJ]

Kent, Ed, and Bob: Thank you for your expert advise and observations on the watch(what's left of it)! Based on the information, it looks like a 571 made between 1946 and 1947. I really appreciate the help and look forward to restoring the piece.
Best regards,
Jim Jorgensen

[Joe Straub]

Jim,

I understand about your childhood curiosity. When I was about the same age, I was busy taking apart my grandmother's old alarm clocks on her old round oak dining room table.

None of them ever ran again. Dad said I was better at taking things apart, then putting them together. He should talk, he took apart a perfectly good Model T when he was a boy, and regreted it the rest of his life.

50+ years have passed since those dining room table days at Grandma's house & Dad is gone now. Hopefully, age makes us all a little wiser. Good luck, I think you will be successful, and I think it will be an enjoyable esperience for you.

Try 15rubyjewels on eBay for parts, he gave me good service.

Joe Straub

[JimJ]

Thanks Joe,
I pass off the watch incident as the start of my mechanical engineering career. Thanks for the parts tip.
Jim