Pre Civil War Waltham pocketwatch

[jakeramovitch]

Hello.
Can anyone recommend a reputable appraiser in the North Carolina area (around Chapel Hill, NC?)

I have inherited my great-grandfather's pocketwatch who received it from the Union Captain he captured in a battle near Petersburg, Virginia. From our family history of the account, the watch was over 100 years old at the time the watch was given to him (1864). I have no interest in selling the watch, just am curious to know exactly how old it is and how to preserve it.

I have not opened the back to look for serial numbers and the like as I'm bit afraid of breaking the hinge or otherwise damaging it.

thanks very much.

[Jon Hanson]

try Terry Hall or Whit Joyner

[jakeramovitch]

thanks, I will contact both of these individuals. thank you.

and, curiousity got the best of me. I was able to open the back. serial number is 10420238.

A.W.W. co.
Waltham, Mass
15 Jewels
the words "Safety Barrell" appear on the outside rim.

It is inscribed by the Captain (J. E. Buckbee) who surrendered it to my great-grandfather (Philip J. Johnson). they met and became friends after the War and Capt Buckbee insisted that Capt Johnson keep it and had it inscribed to commemorate the incident.

don't see how to attach .jpg files or else I'd include photos.

thanks again for your help. Wonderful site.

[Jeff Hess]

Jake,

I hope that is the case number!

If you do not have a flickr.com account send the pics to me and I will happily post them.

sounds like an interesting watch although the serial number is way past civil war era.

Good luck! Lets see pics!
welcome!

[Wes]

From our family history of the account, the watch was over 100 years old at the time the watch was given to him (1864).

Waltham watches started no earlier than the 1850's. I know the Waltham gurus can give you an exact date - heck they probably have it narrowed down to the hour! :biggrin:

Do post a photo of at least the watch movement and we can ID and date it for you.

I know posting photos is a pain on this board unless you have your own web space, so you can email me the photos and I will put them up here for you.

[Jon Hanson]

Whit Joyner is CIVIL EXPERT AND LECTURER--HE ALSO COLLECTS POCKET WATCHES

[terry hall]

Please take up the offers so far of hosting your images.....

I can confirm some things about the watch if seen... but I am not a true Xpert on this time frame.... but certainly have the support of Jon and others with the knowledge...

I agree also that Whit has the credentials and experience on these older watches...

also agree with some things mentioned so far...

(watch 100 yrs old at time of transfer...??)
serial number from movement???

send the pics to wes, jeff, or me...... just click our names to get the email address...

.

[Jon Hanson]

A 1 MILLION SERIAL NUMBER IS NOT CIVIL WAR ERA.

[terry hall]

that is correct !!!!!......

if he is not quoting a case number like Jeff suggested above........

we can wait on the images..... :wink:

[StanJS]

A 10 million (10420238) serial number should put it in the early 1900s. Family history is often incorrect. A picture would save a thousand speculative words.

Cheers,
Stan

[StanJS]

Of course, the Civil War artifact may be the watch case. That may be the item of interest and you may want to run down info on the case. The movement may have been replaced when the original disintegrated. Of course, the question then arises: What movement (English, early American?) that was 100 years old in 1864, would swap out with an 18s Waltham?

Darn! I wasn't going to speculate until I saw the watch.

Cheers,
Stan

[Jon Hanson]

IT DEPENDS ON THE CASE STYLE, HALLMARKS, & TYPE TO FIT THE CORRECT ERA.

[Wes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">10420238 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If this was the SN of the watch moveemnt, it would be a size 16s model 99 hunting case movement with 15 jewels. So, presumably the watch from the 1760s would have had to have been near a size 16s in order for a size 16s movement to have been placed in the case.

Of course, without a photo, we can tell nothing.

[Clint Geller]

The firm at Waltham didn't become the American Waltham Watch Co., (I.e., AWWCo, as opposed to AWCo) until the late 1880's or 1890's, which is also consistent with the later S#.

[Jon Hanson]

what is a true CW watch--one made and/or used in the CW.

many cases/movements are switched

many made during that era never made it to the war

some made previously did make it to the war

many do not look up the correct serial number within that time frame but call them CW watches when sold

authentic CW watches are ones with inscriptions on watches with the correct time frame--ones pinpointed/docummented to people or places, and even fakes of these exist

[Jeff Hess]

http://static.flickr.com/120/297728867_0877a33e15_b.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/114/297728868_88a2822c1a.jpg

Turns out principles got together in 1902 at a worlds fair and they may have exchanged this watch at that time.

Neat story and welcome! What more can you tell us?

[Jon Hanson]

Hi Jeff,

These inscriptions are so cool and historical.

I need to perfect my digital work to shoot some for you!

Thanks for the pict.

Jon

[Jeff Hess]

Jon,

Agreed this is a an interesting watch. The pics are not mine but the owners. I just posted them for her.

She notes: "I apologize for my very unprofessional photography. I hope these images are clear enough for you and your fellow experts to use. If not, I can take additional photos, I just don’t like to handle the watch as one of the cover hinges is looking a bit perilous.



The watch has a very faded front cover (photos #s 1, 2)) which opens up by depressing the winding spindle at the top (pardon my lack of proper terminology).

Inside that front cover is the watch face. On the inside of the cover is a stamped number – 42459 (photo 3) which I missed before.



The back cover is plain. When you open that you see the inscription (4), the interior cover also has the same serial number of 42459 (photo 5), When you open up that interior cover to see the works, there is the initial number that I saw (10420238) (photo 6) - you have the works. However, when you look at the inside of the interior cover (7, 8) there is the
”42459” stamp but also two other numbers that are hand-etched into the metal – I can’t read the full numbers, but both appear to start with the letter “C’ and then a series of numbers.



I looked on the Waltham website, and it is clear that the works with serial # 10420238 is from 1900-1902.



My question is, could the watch case be from an earlier era, as you and others suggested?



This is all very fascinating as I know that my great-grandfather and Capt Buckbee and their wives met at the World’s Fair in Chicago in 1902! So, perhaps if the entire watch is from 1900, it might be that my great-grandfather returned the original family heirloom to the Capt Buckbee and perhaps, in return, he gave my relative the watch I have now to commemorate the event.



Also fascinating is that the Buckbee family papers are held at the University of Michigan library and they include a detailed recount of his capture. I am trying to see if I can persuade one of the librarians to take a photo of the original papers…but, may have to travel there and do it myself and transcribe as they may not allow photography.



Thanks again.
(greatGrandaughter of Philip Jefferson Johnson).

[jakeramovitch]

Jeff - thanks very much for posting these. I will send a photo of the inside cover soon.

The watch is part of a larger Civil War Collection in my family. In addition to the watch, we have the both the Union and Confderate swords and scabbards of my great-grandfather and the captured Union Captain, and my relative’s complete leather sword belt with metal clasp. We also a copy of the letter that appeared in the Detroit Free Press (1881) in which my my great-granfather asks for any information on the Union captain. I need to get this all appraised for insurance purposes, but really am trying to find experts who can tell me what I should and should not do to preserve everything and how to best display it.

I will be traveling to the Richmond Confederate Museum, but any suggestions about cleaning or caring for the watch would be appreciated. For example, I’d like to display it with the back cover open so the inscription is visible, but don’t know if that would damage the hinge in the long run.

thanks again to everyone for their willingness to share their knowledge.

[Wes]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is all very fascinating as I know that my great-grandfather and Capt Buckbee and their wives met at the World’s Fair in Chicago in 1902! So, perhaps if the entire watch is from 1900, it might be that my great-grandfather returned the original family heirloom to the Capt Buckbee and perhaps, in return, he gave my relative the watch I have now to commemorate the event. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah - missed that part. I guess it is all settled then!

[ckeithjohnson]

Is the case contemporary to the watch movement? Is the case coin? Does it have any markings as to maker? It appears to me that the case is of the date of the movement and has been inscribed to commemorate the earlier event.

[Don Dahlberg]

The case is 16 size and stem wind. I think that the 1902 commemeration idea is the one that works. It is still a great watch with a great history.

Don