Help Identifying two pocketwatches please !

[goldtop]

I was hoping someone here could help me identify and age two pocketwatches. The first is silver, fairly substantial, but the screws to undo the case seem to be stuck with silver polish ! so i cant take a picture of the movement.

The second is gold plated, American Waltham and as you can see the hands have decided to detach themselves.

There are markings on both watches that i tried to photo but would be happy to write more detail on if anyone thinks it pertinent.

Hope someone can help

Thanks !

http://static.flickr.com/56/114694355_fab46e49a5.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/54/114694358_f690f1f390.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/42/114694357_8e45e0ae9d.jpg


http://static.flickr.com/36/114694363_f909180a86
.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/36/114694363_f909180a86.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/36/114694363_f909180a86.jpg

[goldtop]

I was hoping someone here could help me identify and age two pocketwatches. The first is silver, fairly substantial, but the screws to undo the case seem to be stuck with silver polish ! so i cant take a picture of the movement.

The second is gold plated, American Waltham and as you can see the hands have decided to detach themselves.

There are markings on both watches that i tried to photo but would be happy to write more detail on if anyone thinks it pertinent.

Hope someone can help

Thanks !

http://static.flickr.com/56/114694355_fab46e49a5.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/54/114694358_f690f1f390.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/42/114694357_8e45e0ae9d.jpg


http://static.flickr.com/36/114694363_f909180a86
.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/36/114694363_f909180a86.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/36/114694363_f909180a86.jpg

[goldtop]

god that didnt go as planned - more images !

http://static.flickr.com/34/114694367_4e3e73b1f5.jpg

[Peter Cox]

The silver one.
The marking are hallmarks, look to be English. One will probably be a lion, another will be a letter, maybe somewhat stylized which will indicate the year, and the thrird one will be a symbol to indicate where it was hallmarked, anchor is Birmingham, cat/panther head is London, 3 sheaves of corn on a sword is Chester, there are a couple of other odd ones around. The watch is key wound and set. To set the hands the key is applied to the square on the hands post. A suggestion to see the movement. The back where the winder is probably doesn't screw off and probably swins out the front. If so when you open the watch bezel/glass you will see a hinge at the top and probably see a catch at the bottom, opposite the stem, you need to release that, push up and simultaneously pull forward and the movement will hinge out of the case.

[John F]

Welcome to the NAWCC message board!

As to the first, there appear to be a number of British (or other European) hallmarks on the case. If you an get a good clear picture of those, that may help with the date. And I would think that the inner rear cover (with the winding hole in it) wouldn't be screwed in, but would pop up - there should be a little opening along the rim, where you can work in your fingernail to open it. Once you can gete to the movement, that should help aid in identifying what you have.

As to the second (the Waltham), you can take the serial number from the movement and plug it in to the Online Waltham Serial Number Database (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm) to get the year of manufacture, grade, etc.

Let us know what you find!

[Edited to add: I can see that Peter types waaay faster than I do!]

[Peter Cox]

hallmark identifier
http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

[Joe Jones]

John wrote, "And I would think that the inner rear cover (with the winding hole in it) wouldn't be screwed in, but would pop up".

No, this is wrong. Peter is right.

This is an English watch, and as in most English watches the rear dome and the outer rim of the case are one piece. About the only way to open the back cover is to saw it off.

First open the bezel, the piece that holds the crystal. It hinges forward. Go to the dial. Look at the top, where the number twelve is. You will see a hinge, the movement is held to the case with this hinge. Look where the six is, at the bottom of the seconds bit. There will be a little piece of steel just about sticking out. That is a catch. Push it in with your fingernail to release the catch, and at the same time GENTLY pull the bottom of the movement forward to swing it out on the hinge. I see that the hands are showing about twelve o'clock, and this is good for viewing the movement. But, if they have moved, do youself a favor and use the key to turn the hands to a position not by the six, or when your fingernail slips off of the catch, as it inevitably will from time to time, the hand will stab your finger or go under your fingernail. Even worse, you may break the hand in the process.

Once inside you may meet with a dust cover. It will most likely have a curved piece of steel on it that slides. That will be holding the dust cover to posts that are attached to the movement. Just slide the steel piece over and lift the dust cover off.

This is typical for English watches of this vintage.

Enjoy this watch, low grade English watches are nice examples of horological craftsmanship, and high grade English watches are superb examples of the watchmaker's art.

Joe Jones

[John F]

Thanks to both Peter and Joe for correcting me on how to open the English watch.

[Jerry Matthews]

The hallmark on the first watch is definitely English. If you can give a clear close-up photo of it I can give you the date. There are three parts to the hallmark: On the top is a lion walking to the left, which indicates the sterling standard. Lower left is the town mark, which as Peter Cox said is anchor for Birmingham, leopard's head (not cat) for London and three wheat sheaves (not corn) for Chester. Lower left will be a letter of the alphabet, but these letters were repeated in 20-year cycles, so I would need to know the style of the letter and the shape of the shield surrounding it. When you open it up as Joe explained there may well be a maker's name on the movement.

My guess is your watch dates from around 1870. I say that because I have one that looks very similar from that period.

Jerry

[Dave Ellery]

Howdy seems like you all know what I have. In fact I think I have the same silver key wind pocket watch in the first picture of the above poster. I would never have figured out how the heck to get to the movment without ya but still I dont know the Maker. The only words on the movement are slow and fast and what looks like a fancy capital A.1255 There are three stamps on the inside of case (top) a lion bottom right a stylized small case b which seems to match 1856
the bottom left is a triangle shield which seems plain. The # 1255 is also below the stamps. The face is in roman numerals and there is a seperate small second hand dial above 6 with numbers.
I would love to know who the maker is or anything.
I have a box of pocket watches (three Elgins two Howards and some Walthams. This undifined one being key wound is driving me nuts
Thanks
Dave
dellery@aol.com

[Dave Ellery]

I forgot on the last post there is the small case letters (it) under the hallmark stamps
Dave

[Jerry Matthews]

Good morning from England, Dave. First, your question about who made your watch. If there is no maker's name on the movement, then it was probably not made by any one watchmaker but was the combined product of a lot of individuals making the parts. In 19th century Britain here was a thriving cottage industry of people (very often women) making dials, hands, wheels, fusee chains, etc. These parts would be bought most often by a local jeweller who would assemble and case them, and sometimes---but not always---put his name on the face or even on the movement. But it wasn't always a jeweller. In some more remote towns and villages any skilled craftsman---blacksmith, hard as that is to believe, wheelwright, bicycle maker---could do a credible job of assembling a watch from bought-in parts or semi-finished movements. These would be sold locally without any indication of maker's name. They weren't necessarily low quality. I have a very fine one in a hallmarked silver case dating from 1862 which is running beautifully.

The fact that 1255 is on both the movement and the case is an indication that they were originally assembled together....it's not a newer movement in an old case.

Now regarding the hallmark. I can't reconcile 1856 with a small-case b. We really need to see the town mark which you say is rubbed out on your watch. Often the town mark (also known as the assay office mark) is repeated on both inner and outer case, or even on the stem so maybe you can find it there.

I am going to send a scan of some pages from an English hall mark guide and send to your email address later today. They may be helpful.

The letters "it" under the hallmark will identify the case-maker. But there are an awful lot of "its" listed, so we would need to pin down the hallmark details first.

Regards, Jerry

[goldtop]

wow, thanks for the response gentlemen. Plenty of information and processes to action ! Will report back.

Thanks again

[goldtop]

Right....

The Waltham serial number is 8463000. I fed this into the serial number identifier and it didnt really tell me anything I understood. In particular I am interested in what the watch is called and how old it is.

The Silver watch - I got the movement to spring out and its a base metal affair, enclosed and a certainly cant see any identifying marks on it. The hallmarks are as follows and appear on the case and identically on the inside cover of the movement

16 2 1/2 oz

a lion walking left

some manner of shield with 3 cups or sheafs ?

a large M

underneath that it says either 'R H' or 'K H' (difficult to say which) and the numbers 17114. In lighter almost scratches appear to be service dates, the last one of which reads 1958 so im guessing it needs a service !

Thanks

[goldtop]

OK

I think its a Chester silver pocketwatch. From the hallmarks it suggests either 1895 or possibly 1830 ?

[Dave Ellery]

Super, Jerry and Cheers to Ya
Its 7am here hust waking up to see the market open and am thrilled to see your response after many hours on watch investigating with no results. I have Howards and elgins and walthams all over my room ticking away, my room sounds like a time bomb hehe. They are all from Great Grandpas etc. The one in question here came from mt Dads Dad who was a sugeon in WWII a we think thats when he aquired it or it was traded for medical services during the depression instead of cash, they ate a lot of rabbits to Im told
I will get back with you soon
Thanks
Dave

[Jerry Matthews]

Hello again -

First the Waltham: It is a Waltham Model 88, made in 1898-99.

Now, the English watch: Yes, I am pretty sure the hallmark is Chester 1895. The style of the watch is too late to be 1830. The other initials are probably RH for Rowland Hill & Co, the silversmith who had the case assayed at Chester.

As for the movement, you say it is base metal (brass?) and enclosed with no identifying marks. I think you haven't got to the movement yet, only to the dust cover which encloses it. There is probably a semi-circular clip on the dust cover which simply slides along, allowing you to lift the cover off. Then you can see the movement.

If there is still no indication of maker's name on the movement, then see my reply above to Dave Ellery. The number 17114 on the case doesn't mean much on its own, and you are right in assuming the other marks are service dates. If you plan to keep the watch running, I would certainly recommend a clean and oil service.

If you are still uncertain about the dust cover, let me have your email address and I will send you a photo so you can see how they are opened.

REgards, Jerry

[goldtop]

DOH !

Yes I hadnt removed the dust cover. I have now ! No markings whatsoever inside, no engravings...I guess the trail goes cold here ?

[Jerry Matthews]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If there is no maker's name on the movement, then it was probably not made by any one watchmaker but was the combined product of a lot of individuals making the parts. In 19th century Britain here was a thriving cottage industry of people (very often women) making dials, hands, wheels, fusee chains, etc. These parts would be bought most often by a local jeweller who would assemble and case them, and sometimes---but not always---put his name on the face or even on the movement. But it wasn't always a jeweller. In some more remote towns and villages any skilled craftsman---blacksmith, hard as that is to believe, wheelwright, bicycle maker---could do a credible job of assembling a watch from bought-in parts or semi-finished movements. These would be sold locally without any indication of maker's name. They weren't necessarily low quality. I have a very fine one in a hallmarked silver case dating from 1862 which is running beautifully. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Above is what I said to Dave Ellery yesterday, which also applies to your watch. But you have found out a lot: You know when the case was assayed, you know who made it, and you can be pretty sure the movement was made in 1895-96. Some progress at least.

Is the watch running? Do you have a key to wind and set it? (You set the hands by placing the key over the square nut in the centre of the hands and turning clockwise.)

Jerry

[goldtop]

Hi, I dont have a key for it so I dont know if it works. What does 'assaying' actually mean, is it a declaration that the material is silver or some such legal process ?

I'll look more into the assayer and again, thanks for your help

[Jerry Matthews]

All articles of gold or silver sold in Britain have to be tested to see that they contain the right metal content (for example, .925 for sterling silver, .375 for 9 carat gold). The proof of this test, or assay, is the hallmark. Other countries have similar sysems, but none of them are as detailed or informative as the British.

The tests are done (currently) at four assay offices: London, Birmingham, Sheffield and Edinburgh. There were several others in the past, but these are now closed down. One of them was Chester, which you will often see on watch cases.

You can get a set of watch keys on eBay for around £7.50--£10; one of the set is sure to fit your watch